Estrada Hurt

[mikerollins]

Face it. He ain't hurt. It's a copout.

 

He's benched tonight because Ned was embarassed by what transpired last night.

 

That's why Hardy is benched too. He dogged out the dropped pop-up, when he should have been standing on 2nd.

 

They got their ass chewed out in the locker room and benched tonight.

 

Ned, being the good manager that he is, doesn't air dirty laundry to the media.

 

So Estrada is "hurt" and Hardy is getting "rest".

 

I'm a huge JJ Hardy fan, and don't have the resentment towards Estrada that some people here do, but what happened last night was inexcusable and Ned will not tolerate it.

 

If you believe that Estrada is hurt, I have some swampland for you to by in Florida.

[Jarjohm]

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We are complaining about our catcher. there are about 15 other things we could talk about. Instead we are discussing one play from a catcher that can actually hit. But he doesn't run out one play that was a gimme double play and now, all of a sudden, the catcher whom was hated by most, is wanted back in the lineup.

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God, I wish it was just ONE play like you say... Estrada is lackadaisical on offense and defense, slow as molasses, has poor at-bats, never takes pitches, never runs out ground balls, misses easy pop ups, does not run towards pop ups between him and first or third, cannot throw out a runner to save his life and generally seems to have a poor attitude all the time (i.e. sulking back to the dugout after executing a sac bunt).

 

This isn't the first time he didn't run out a ground ball. He NEVER runs out ground balls. It was just the first time the game was on the line when he did it. I don't buy the injury for a second. He's been playing this way all year. I was trying to give the guy a break because a catcher who can hit close to .300 is obviously a valuable asset. But last night was the last straw. There's no arguing it anymore. He's just lazy.

[dadofandrew]

Estrada has obviously been struggling with his gait for a while. I'm not sure why people still expect the Crew to be forthcoming with injury news, when it benefits no one.

 

We still have people insisting Hart was never hurt the entire month he was, even though Corey admitted it a week or so ago in a story about Weeks.

 

All this does is put us at a 3 man bench for a couple days.

[Jarjohm]

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Estrada has obviously been struggling with his gait for a while. I'm not sure why people still expect the Crew to be forthcoming with injury news, when it benefits no one.

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As others have said, if Estrada was injured before this, why was he in the game catching 12 innings of baseball and then allowed to hit in a key situation where the Brewers needed absolutely anything but a double-play? It just doesn't add up.

[mikerollins]

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As others have said, if Estrada was injured before this, why was he in the game catching 12 innings of baseball and then allowed to hit in a key situation where the Brewers needed absolutely anything but a double-play? It just doesn't add up.

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He wasn't.

 

You don't have to try to explain it to the people that don't want to listen.

 

Ned took the high road..and said he was hurt. If Suppan wasn't pitching, he'd probably be back in there catching tomorrow.

[dadofandrew]

Are you suggesting he be removed because his leg is sore? If that was the case, he'd have been taken out of about 15 games after being drilled by foul tips. These guys are men, many probably take several Advil or Aleve every day to get through the 3 hours of game time, especially late in the season.

 

JJ has been struggling as well for some time, and to me, he still looks "stiff" in the field, as if his back is not 100%.

[Jarjohm]

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Are you suggesting he be removed because his leg is sore?

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Not necessarily. If Yost believes Estrada can be effective with a sore leg, than he should be in there. But Estrada was so slow to first on that ball that the right fielder would have had a shot at getting him out if the ball was hit off the wall. If you're hurt so bad you can't "run" to first at a speed quicker than a brisk walk, you shouldn't be playing.

 

But I don't believe he had a serious injury anyway. If Estrada had a sore leg and Yost knew he had absolutely no chance of running out a ground ball, he simply wouldn't be in the game with the bases loaded in extra innings with no outs and an available catcher on the bench. As much as I question some of Yost's decisions, I can't believe he would purposely all but assure a rally-crippling double play.

[pogokat]

Mikerollins---

 

Lay off the condescension a bit please...it's ok to think Ned's lying, but it's also ok to think Estrada is hurt...

[TheCrew07]

edit. Posted about Salome, then bounced over to the minor league forum and saw he was just suspended for 50 games... when it rains it certainly does pour.

[Fatter than Joey]

We are complaining about our catcher. there are about 15 other things we could talk about.

 

Right, If you look at the major league forum there are more than 15 other items being discussed -- clearly we have met the obligatory 15 items to begin discussing Estrada.

 

Instead we are discussing one play from a catcher that can actually hit.

 

Not really -- If you read this thread, (and the other thread) you will see a lot of discussion regarding Estrada's play on both sides of the ball. Furthermore Estrada was not exactly revered by his teammates in Philly, Atlanta or AZ. It is really unfair to insinuate that someone on BFnet saw one play and then in your words "all of a sudden" started this thread, the concept that Estrada is a slacker dates back 5-6 years.

 

But he doesn't run out one play that was a gimme double play and now...

 

OK -- By your admission, he did not run out this play. I am pretty sure that one of the golden rules of baseball --- at any level -- is that you run out each play. I think it is pretty reasonable to call out any player that does not run out a play.

 

the catcher whom was hated by most, is wanted back in the lineup.

 

It's interesting to me -- you are a new(er) poster, yet you make a claim like this, which only a person could make if they contributed in a past life. On the other hand, you are entirely inaccurate on this. -- Your inclusions of the words, "most" and "hated" make your statement false. I am sure there are some Damian haters on this board, in the sense that every player has his detractors -- however they would be in the vast minority.

 

But he is one of the better hitting catchers out there and that is a short list.

 

I would challenge this statement -- Clearly Estrada is one of the worst OBP players in the game, catchers or otherwise. He is better than average in SLG, and remains there for OPS. I would say overall -- he is a very average offensive player for a catcher. The interesting thing, is that you look at the players who are better offensive catchers than JE -- all of them are vastly better defensively.

 

And Piazza is not what we need. Awful defensively as well, doesn't hit that well anymore, and makes a bunch of money. Not a good option

 

Plus he only DH's nowadays. I think you missed the joke here http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Bruce Ciskie]

I guess I'll go back to something I mentioned in the Vent Thread.

 

I have a huge problem with Ned covering up his anger when guys aren't hustling, but he has no issues whatsoever about walking to the mound and dressing down a pitcher in public when he can't find the strike zone. I guess I see some hypocrisy there. Certainly some inconsistency.

[mikerollins]

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Mikerollins---

 

Lay off the condescension a bit please...it's ok to think Ned's lying, but it's also ok to think Estrada is hurt...

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Fair enough. Sorry.

 

My point is that if Estrada really did have a bad hamstring, I have a hard time believing he would still be in there catching the 12th consecutive inning on Monday night, with a healthy Miller on the bench.

 

I am pretty confident that the injury was a public story, while privately, Hardy and Estrada know damn well why they were sitting.

 

I have no problem with the way Ned handled it, but think it's fairly obvious that there was a correlation between the 2 guys that dogged in extra innings and the 2 guys that were not in the lineup when they normally would be on Tuesday night.

 

I also have no problem with people who do think he was hurt, but I just feel they are bein naive.

[mikerollins]

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I have a huge problem with Ned covering up his anger when guys aren't hustling, but he has no issues whatsoever about walking to the mound and dressing down a pitcher in public when he can't find the strike zone. I guess I see some hypocrisy there. Certainly some inconsistency.

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Did you want him to go out to the first baseline to chew Estrada out? Meet him halfway to the dugout? Meet him on the top step where all the cameras can see it? I'm sure Estrada got his earful, but the camera didn't catch it.

 

What did you want him to do with Balfour after he had missed on 6 straight pitches? Sit in the dugout and twiddle his thumbs and see "Gee Mike..we should go tell him to throw strikes, but I'd hate to hurt the kids feelings, let's just let him figure things out on his own."

 

The only difference between the 2 situations is the camera was on the mound visit and it wasn't on Estrada when he came back to the dugout.

[Thurston Fluff]

I have a huge problem with Ned covering up his anger when guys aren't hustling, but he has no issues whatsoever about walking to the mound and dressing down a pitcher in public when he can't find the strike zone. I guess I see some hypocrisy there. Certainly some inconsistency.

 

Ned has never had a problem covering up his anger at lack of hustle. He certainly made his feeling known when he benched Sanchez for Podsednick. Bill Hall was removed from a game last year and sat out the next one for showing up an ump. He always made it clear he will not tolerate lazy play. That is why it's likely Estrada was hurting a bit.

As far as why he was playing when he couldn't run that is a valid point. I think it's easy to say he can't run after seeing him trot in the game. I don't know if the length of the game had an effect or if Ned had ever seen him run so poorly before that moment. I kind of doubt Ned would have had him in there if he knew Estrada was that hampered by the leg. I doubt they have Estrada out there doing timed wind sprints before every game to see how fast he can run. They play it by ear and ask him how he's doing. If he says I'm ok then let him play. Now that Ned sees he's not ok he sits him for a awhile. Why is that senario so hard to believe? Unless the hatred for Ned or Estrada is so strong as to taint any logical reason for the situation.

[Bruce Ciskie]

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Did you want him to go out to the first baseline to chew Estrada out? Meet him halfway to the dugout? Meet him on the top step where all the cameras can see it? I'm sure Estrada got his earful, but the camera didn't catch it.

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Either he lied to us (Estrada is healthy but just dogged it), which is the wrong way to handle this, or he was stupid to keep playing Estrada every day when he KNEW Estrada was banged up. Pick your poison. Frankly, I find it pretty difficult to stick up for him either way.

[monty57]

A sore hamstring shouldn't really affect a player's catching ability, other than possibly on throws to second, but probably not even then. It would really be a quad injury that wouldn't allow him to catch.

 

I'm sure many of you have had pulled hammys, so I'm not telling you anything new, but for those that haven't, the only real cure is rest, and not re-pulling it. It will feel fine, but as soon as you run all-out, it will just pop and then you're back to square one.

 

It is possible that Yost is using this as a front, but it is also very believeable that he's telling the truth. Being a catcher, the only way he's really going to hurt it worse is when he's running the bases. Yost said that he told Estrada not to run all out (much like he told Rickie to not try to hit to the other field when it hurt his wrist). It appeared to me on the play that he started slowly, then tried to run faster, then slowed back up... that would be telling that he is indeed hurting. In fact, he may have "put himself back to square one" by trying to run it out, necessitating his sitting on the bench for a few days, and possibly even visiting the DL.

 

Now, the question is whether he should have been put on the DL two weeks ago, meaning that he'd probably be pretty close to full strength now. Even in hindsight, I don't know if there's a clear answer there. Would Miller/Rivera have done better than Estrada/Miller over the past few weeks? We don't know.

 

It would seem to make sense to play Miller more to allow more rest for Estrada. As far as pulling Estrada in that situation, Ned has shown that he won't pinch hit for his catcher, even back when it was Moeller. That's one reason so many people have called for Rottino to be the 25th man. At least it would allow Miller to pinch hit and Estrada to be pinch hit for in situations like this.

[mikerollins]

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Either he lied to us (Estrada is healthy but just dogged it), which is the wrong way to handle this

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He lied to you? No way! Ned Yost lied to Bruce Ciskie. What a terrible way to handle the situation. He should have blasted Estrada to the media and really pissed him off. I just wish we had a manager who would blast players publically to the media like Ozzie Guillen because that would make things so much better.

 

Remember, just like with injuries, Ned Yost owes the fans nothing in terms of what's going on with his team.

[Bruce Ciskie]

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What a terrible way to handle the situation. He should have blasted Estrada to the media and really pissed him off. I just wish we had a manager who would blast players publically to the media like Ozzie Guillen because that would make things so much better.

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World Series titles

Ozzie Guillen 1

Ned Yost 0

 

Division titles

Ozzie Guillen 1

Ned Yost 0

 

Winning seasons as a manager

Ozzie Guillen 3

Ned Yost 0

 

I knew someone would come after me on that angle, and I figured it might be you. Not really surprised that you would pull that kind of angle out of what I posted.

 

Don't you find it really strange that Ned has no problem lambasting his pitchers in public, but he won't even issue a mild rebuke of one of his position players? I'm not asking him to bite the guy's head off, but instead of talking about the "good pitch" Weathers made, and later making excuses for Estrada by saying he is hurt, wouldn't it have been much less of an issue for Ned if he were just upfront at the start?

 

I don't care if the guy's hurt or if he was dogging it. But I shouldn't have to read through a bunch of crap to figure it out. If he was hurt, why was he playing practically every day? If he was dogging it, then why did you see fit to say he was hurt?

 

I don't see any of that as "unreasonable". It's too bad that no one in the press in Milwaukee is going to run far enough away from the company line and actually ask a tough question. They'd rather ask stupid questions about scoring too many runs out of home runs after a ten-run game where a bunch of runs were scored without the benefit of home runs. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

[mikerollins]

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Don't you find it really strange that Ned has no problem lambasting his pitchers in public, but he won't even issue a mild rebuke of one of his position players?

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I guess I've never seen him "lambast a pitcher in public". To me, in public is spoken to the media. I've never seen him do that. He's always taken the high road.

 

The obvious difference here is when you need to make a mound visit, everyone can see.

 

Maybe we need to get Ned and the pitcher cell phones, so that Ned can just send him a quick text message so that he doesn't need to go out to the mound and "lambast the pitcher in public."

 

The only difference between Ned jumping on Balfour and jumping on Estrada was that you saw the conversation on TV with the pitcher. If he waited to "instruct him" when he came to the dugout, it would have been too late.

[xisxisxis]

Remember, just like with injuries, Ned Yost owes the fans nothing in terms of what's going on with his team.

 

Ned's job is part managerial and part public relations. The Brewers exist because they generate a significant amount of their revenue from the purchasing activity of their customers (tickets, concessions, caps, t-shirts, etc.). Part of Ned's job is to respond to concerns by customers and to help diffuse issues. Ned seems to understand his role.

 

 

I knew someone would come after me on that angle, and I figured it might be you. Not really surprised that you would pull that kind of angle out of what I posted.

 

But Bruce, Ned likes Milwaukee and he's positive. Who needs winning when you've got the "best" manager in baseball.

 

 

 

I don't have a problem with Ned not saying anything about Estrada's injury 2 weeks ago. New laws make it harder for employers to discuss employees health in public. It also could prevent some manager from running on Estrada to take advantage of his injury, not that any manager would need an excuse to send runners on Johnny. If he's going to keep it quiet then keep it quiet, if it happens that the injury makes Estrada look bad under certain circumstances then that's on Nedly and Johnny. They made their bed, they can lie in it. Coming out now and saying he was injured 2 weeks ago seems a bit of wanting their cake and eating it too.

[Bruce Ciskie]

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Ned's job is part managerial and part public relations. Part of Ned's job is to respond to concerns by customers and to help diffuse issues. Ned seems to understand his role.

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For the most part, yes.

 

But in many ways, he's just like every other coach in sports. He uses the media when he sees fit. He communicates with the fanbase when he sees fit.

 

Announcing, for example, that you're benching Jenkins (last year) is nice. Fans do sometimes get to know that stuff. But why didn't he make an excuse for Jenkins' poor play by saying he was trying to play through a back injury?

 

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I don't have a problem with Ned not saying anything about Estrada's injury 2 weeks ago. New laws make it harder for employers to discuss employees health in public. It also could prevent some manager from running on Estrada to take advantage of his injury, not that any manager would need an excuse to send runners on Johnny. If he's going to keep it quiet then keep it quiet, if it happens that the injury makes Estrada look bad under certain circumstances then that's on Nedly and Johnny. They made their bed, they can lie in it. Coming out now and saying he was injured 2 weeks ago seems a bit of wanting their cake and eating it too.

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No law would prevent Yost from saying "Estrada is banged up, but he's going to try to play through it", or "Johnny needs to sit a few days with an injury". In some cases, they're not allowed to discuss specifics, depending on the wishes of the athlete.

 

In general, though, I agree with you. All that this "revelation" does is make Ned look bad. Or Johnny. Depends on who you believe, I guess.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

First of all, it's great to see the always-entertaining xisxisxisxisxis return to BF.net! Stick around more often this time, m'friend, we need you!

 

As for Ned, it looks as if he buried this Estrada injury info a bit, but perhaps he was assured by JE, by the medical staff, his coaches, by trainers, whoever, that Estrada could play all this time. Or, maybe Ned knew JE was hurtin' and didn't feel like letting the Rockies, Diamondbacks, Reds, etc. know that. Either way, Ned is not responsible for disseminating that information, so it doesn't bother me.

 

Big cover-up? Meh.

 

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time a Brewer manager lambasted his player in public was when the lunatic Jerry Royster was spitting fire and saliva on the mound with Mike DeJean.

 

By the way, Bruce, normally you're much lower key than today. Everything OK?

[mikerollins]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I never like coaches who blast players publically. I'd much rather have them blast them privately and then just make something up for the media/fans. I think it's the way a team, organization, company should be run.

 

Handle things internally and then make up whatever you or the player wants made up for everyone else.

[Bruce Ciskie]

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By the way, Bruce, normally you're much lower key than today. Everything OK?

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I'm wavering between thinking this is sarcastic and thinking this is genuine. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Meh. I'm stressing over a stupid pennant race. I hate the Cubs. I work with two Cub fans, and a third party (non-baseball fan) has taken to wearing a Cub hat to work because I think he wants me to kill him.

 

Otherwise, life is good. I'm going to get Guitar Hero Encore in about an hour, and that'll be fun. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Oh, and Mike DeJean had it coming. I'm sure of it. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[xisxisxis]

First of all, it's great to see the always-entertaining xisxisxisxisxis return to BF.net! Stick around more often this time, m'friend, we need you!

 

Right back at you my friend! I've been sick for months and it got progressively worse the last 2 months to the point of a major crisis last week. Fortunately, I think we finally figured out the problem. I've been on a modified regimen the last 6 days and am finally feeling close to normal (my normal!).

 

No law would prevent Yost from saying "Estrada is banged up, but he's going to try to play through it", or "Johnny needs to sit a few days with an injury".

 

I'm no expert on HIPAA (I just passed the online training class), but I do recall that it's amazing the level of "protection" you have to go to protecting patient and employee information. Generalities may work, but I wouldn't be suprised if ANY discussion is against the law now.