Cubs acquire Rich Harden and Chad Gaudin for Gallagher, Patterson, Murton and Donaldson

[Fatter than Joey]

From today's JS: "Chicago followed the Brewers' acquisition of Sabathia by trading for Oakland ace Dan Haren but Yost said he gave no thought to that tit-for-tat."

Harden AND Haren? The Brewers are screwed.

 

Unless I am missing something, Haren plays for the D-backs. Must have been a typo.

[decktard]

Speculation based on some facts and some conjecture.

 

Those of us with money in the stock market know that, "Past results are no guarantee of future performance." (in either direction)

 

Why don't we wait until his first start on Saturday?

But speculation is what it is all about. If there was no risk associated with Harden, Beane would've wanted a lot more for Harden. Fact: The Cubs got a discount on Harden because of his past injury concerns. You can't refute that.

Past performance may not dictate Harden's future but on the other hand you can't go around saying "I think he's going to be lights out and 100% healthy." He has 1 season of 190ish innings of staying healthy.

 

Either way... his first start won't prove anything, his next start won't prove anything either. The only thing that will prove that Harden can stay healthy is... well... Harden staying healthy for the season. Which... for the record... he has already spent time on the DL this season.

Again, not a bad signing. Cubs fans should get excited. But then again, don't be upset or disappointed if/when he does land on the DL.

 

[SeriesFinale]

Those of us with money in the stock market know that, "Past results are no guarantee of future performance." (in either direction)

In that case, how about the Cubs start Daryle Ward and Mike Fontenot down the stretch instead of Lee and Ramirez? I mean, you just never know.

[Postseason2006]

If anyone read the article in SI on Lincecum they would see how knowledgable the pitching coach in Oakland is. This guy predicted Bobby Brownlee's arm problems and he was done not long after he Cubs picked him.

 

Beane and Peterson know what they are doing. Harden will be out again in no time and not be a factor in the postseason.

[naivin]

Postseason2006[/b]]If anyone read the article in SI on Lincecum they would see how knowledgable the pitching coach in Oakland is. This guy predicted Bobby Brownlee's arm problems and he was done not long after he Cubs picked him.

 

Beane and Peterson know what they are doing. Harden will be out again in no time and not be a factor in the postseason.

 

The only problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes Jim Hendry is a complete buffoon who doesn't do his homework, and/or that he simply fell victim to desperation after the CC Sabathia acquisition by the Brewers. I could see the latter having a minor impact, but I frankly don't buy either one.

[DeacCub]

Ok. Obviously a Cubs fan here. And I'm not here to flame. I'm just going to offer up my opinion of both deals.

 

Typically people (the media especially) compare trades by just looking at the potential of the players exchanged. And that is really pretty short sighted. The Cubs and the Brewers are two totally different teams with different needs. Ditto for their trade partners.

 

Let's be frank. On paper pre-trade the Cubs had a deeper pitching staff top to bottom. They also have a more consistent offense that isn't as reliant on the home run as the Brewers. Simply put the Cubs to assure themselves the ability to compete were better positioned than Milwaukee. And that fact enters into how both the Cubs and Brewers would approach any trade negotiation.

 

The Brewers IMO made a brillant trade. If I were just comparing Harden to CC I'd take CC because he is more durable. So giving up a can't miss prospect for him makes sense. And it makes even more sense when you consider that CC is a more important piece of the puzzle for the Brewers than Harden is for the Cubs.

 

The Cubs? The Cubs have made a move that shores up their pen further, offers them a spot starter and MAY give them a top line starter. It is clear they gave up less to get their haul. But when you consider not only the risk Harden presents but also the fact the Cubs were deeper from a personnel on the big league club than the Brewers, that makes sense. Simply put the Cubs didn't need Harden and Goudin as much as the Brewers could see they needed CC. And they no doubt approached their negotiations with this in mind. Ditto for your GM.

 

Which trade is better in the traditional way the media compares things. Assuming all you care about is winning now - which I think is the correct view - I'd say the Brewers trade is significantly more impactful to the makeup of their team. CC will eat up innings, keep your pen more in the pen and will strike out a lot of guys - meaning your D gets upgraded by default. The real question though is whether the less glamorous move made by the Cubs in terms of what was given and given up did enough to keep the Brewers at bay. No one knows the answer to that question, yet. IF Harden stays healthy the answer is likely yes. If not, we still don't know.

 

Bottom line - I don't think either team got fleeced. You gave up a top flight can't miss prospect. That's the price for you to try and win now. The Cubs gave up two average outfielders and a catcher who are replacable and a promising young pitcher who was surplus to need this year. They know it is a gamble and they didn't lay huge chips down on the table to make the bet. Appropriate. Each team went into this with their eyes wide open and made good exchanges for the risk/reward scenario given the current staff on their teams. Sure the Cubs gave up less. They also didn't have as much need and were taking more risk on the cornerstone player of the trade. I would applaud both GM's heartily. And let's face it. If the Brewers don't land CC, the Cubs might not make this move at all.

[PeaveyFury]

Chicago followed the Brewers' acquisition of Sabathia by trading for Oakland ace Dan Haren but Yost said he gave no thought to that tit-for-tat.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=771022

 

I know some people feel this board is overly hard on the JS coverage of the Brewers/Tom H, but that's just completely inexcusable.

[Brian the Automator]

Chicago followed the Brewers' acquisition of Sabathia by trading for Oakland ace Dan Haren but Yost said he gave no thought to that tit-for-tat.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=771022

 

I know some people feel this board is overly hard on the JS coverage of the Brewers/Tom H, but that's just completely inexcusable.

Haren, Harden, Harang... Whatever, some guy who throws a baseball.

 

[Oldcity]

That was my point. It should have been in blue. I don't get how, first, a journalist does that, then, an editor doesn't catch it.

[TooLiveBrew]

TH still thinks Greg Gross was our 4th OF. How are we supposed to expect him to get other teams' players right?

[Fatter than Joey]

That was my point. It should have been in blue. I don't get how, first, a journalist does that, then, an editor doesn't catch it.

 

I thought that was your point -- the follow-up posts threw me off, as I thought they replied to yours.

 

I agree 100% though -- you gotta correct that typo.

[craigharmann]

TH still thinks Greg Gross was our 4th OF. How are we supposed to expect him to get other teams' players right?

Don't forget that Greg Gagne is a reliever and Cecil Fielder is our first baseman. And Bucks power foward Charlie Villanueva is moonlighting as the long man in the bullpen.

 

[PeaveyFury]

Haren, Harden, Harang... Whatever, some guy who throws a baseball.

I guess Rich kind of sounds like Dan as well.

At least Haren was a former A, even if he didn't pitch for them for a single inning this year since he's been pitching in Arizona this season. Would have been more embarrassing if he had said Aaron Harang.

[TooLiveBrew]

But no one's been talking about Haren since he's a scrub. Totally understandable for TH to do this.

[SeriesFinale]

Thought this was interesting Stark's column...

 

• Something brewing: Had the Brewers not landed the biggest 290-pound fish in the trading pond, we're hearing they wouldn't have turned to Harden as Plan B. Their target was the Royals' Zack Greinke. That's a moot point now.

Not necessarily because of the Greinke stuff (although that's interesting, too) but that Melvin and the Crew didn't seem to want to pursue Harden. With the team-friendly contract and the extra year, you have to wonder why.

[homer]

Is Greinke a free agent after this year? I think he'd be an attractive 'get' for Milwaukee if/when Sheets leaves.

[TooLiveBrew]

Greinke would be under Brewers control after 2008, iirc -- from a quick peek at Cot's, it looks like he's got two more arbitration seasons after 2008. In a way, I'd have rather them targeted him, since the price might not have included LaPorta (or Gamel or Escobar).

[Brewtacular]

So when does this Harden guy pitch?

[TooLiveBrew]

Saturday, July 12th v. SF (Kevin Correia) at Wrigley Field (12:05p Central time)

 

Cubs' probable pitchers link

 

 

Cubs: The hard-throwing Harden makes his Cubs debut against a National League team he is pretty familiar with in San Francisco. Harden stymied the Giants in the Bay Bridge Series last month, tossing six shutout innings of one-hit ball and striking out nine, and he holds an 0.84 career ERA against them. He last pitched on July 6 for Oakland, meaning he gets an extra day of rest following a pair of mediocre five-inning outings by his lofty standards.

[cubfan1126]

After the break, we play 3 in Houston and then 3 in Arizona. I believe Lou is going with Lilly, Dempster, and Zambrano vs the Astros so maybe we'll get to see Harden vs Haren when we play the D'backs.

[SeriesFinale]

maybe we'll get to see Harden vs Haren when we play the D'backs.

This will make the Journal-Sentinel's sports desk's heads explode.

 

"It's like matter meeting anti-matter!"

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Well I suppose it depends on what makes up that 91.6. If that consists of 2 starts and one was 93 and one was 89, that would be a pretty big deal. I don't no that is is or is not the case, but most of the comments refer only to his last start.

 

Josh Kalk looked at this over at Brew Crew Ball. It turns out that what you describe is very close to what actually happened, except that it was 2 starts ago that his velocity was way down and then it returned in his last start with Oakland. According to Pitchf/x, his horizontal movement was down and his vertical movement was up along with the lower velocity 2 starts ago, so Mr. Kalk hypothesizes that his arm angle was just out of whack.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Harden pitched 5.1 innings and had 10 strikeouts today. He was pulled because the Cubs had a 7 run lead and his pitch count was at 96.

 

I'd consider that a success for the Cubs today with Harden, but still plenty of question marks if they have to pull him that early. They are really trying to be careful with him and let's hope they are too careful in future close games and it costs them.

[RU Rah Rah]

Harden's start today was kind of a glass-half-empty, or glass-half-full kind of thing. 10 K's in 5+ innings is outstanding, but . . . why only 5 innings?

 

(And, just parenthetically, it really sucks when the Cubs win these games in the afternoon, and Brewers need to win a night game just to keep pace.)

[molitor fan]

Just wanted to note that Sean Gallagher had a great outing in his debut for the A's last night, putting together a 7 2 2 2 3 7 line in the A's 9-2 win.