Ray Durham -- Latest: Trade completed? Ford and Hammond to the Giants for sure, no Taschner

[trwi7]

Weeks to Oakland for Street. Ellis is a free agent (I believe) soon and Weeks could fit in well. I do note that he isn't a high OBP guy, which Beane seems to only trade for guys that take walks.

They just drafted Rickie's little brother in the first round. I seriously doubt they're trading for Weeks.

 

Beane would love Rickie if he could hit around .250. That would put his OBP in the .350-.360 range.

[splitterpfj]

Durham is just another Counsell on the bench offensively.

I have to disagree with this.

Durham's average is 47 pts higher than Counsell's, his OBP is 39 pts higher, and his SLG is 78 pts higher, he's also a switch-hitter, and could still outrun Counsell with relative ease.

 

Defensively, the league average Range Factor (per game) at 2B is 4.07 - Counsell is at 4.08 as a 2B this season, Durham is 3.7 - which is brutal.

 

BTW, Rickie's Range Factor is 4.66

 

edit: The highest OBP on the Brewers right now, is Prince Fielder, at .360. Durham is at .385 this season, and .352 over his long career - he fills a need for sure.

[endaround]

UZR from THT:

 

Durham is at .768 with only 8 OOZ plays

Weeks is at .800 with 23 OOZ plays

Roberts is .804 with 26 OOZ plays

Grudzilanek is at .834 with 7 OOZ plays

Counsell's small sample amount is .771 with 4 OOZ plays (at short he's .878 so its almost certainly a small sample thing)

 

Some for comparison:

Ellis is .907, Uggla is .804, Hudson is .797 Utley is .836 with 44(!) OOZ plays.

 

Edit: OOZ is "Out of Zone", the "zone" for each position is the area in which 50% or more of batted balls are handled for outs. This again shows Durham with a striking lack of range at this point.

[TheCrew07]

If you don't want to get into a debate, you shouldn't suggest that others are close-minded. I don't "believe what I want to believe". There are certain undisputable facts. The Brewers started the season 15th in total payroll. That is not an attribute of a small revenue team. It is true that the Brewers play in the smallest market and have the worst TV contract, but that doesn't define them as small revenue. Brewers fans love baseball so dearly that they will fill a stadium for a team that is good and they will draw 25-30k for a team that hovers around .500. Not many other cities can claim that.

 

The Brewers have been and will be players in the FA market. They may not go for the top players at the position, but they can fill holes with moderate contracts.

 

Losers sell, winners buy. It is in the best interest of the Brewers to develop prospects. The Brewers should use those prospects to improve their team, whether that is through playing for the Brewers or being traded for players that will play for the Brewers.

The Brewers having the 15th-17th (depending on which reports to believe) payroll is fantastic for the market, there is no doubt. The point that many people fail to consider is that the Brewers are nearing the point where the revenue will plateau. There simply aren't that many untapped revenue streams left, this market is not going to provide unlimited revenue, regardless of how well the team does. The TV contract is important because that's one of the few remaining ways the team can make a significant jump in revenue, without raising ticket prices. With attendance that may top 3 million this year, there simply isn't much room to grow, and 90 mil looks to be about the maximum sustainable payroll. I didn't say anything about being "close-minded", and you certainly believe what you want to believe... we all do. Your opinions are based on your interpetations of the "facts" you've been presented with as are mine. Saying the team isn't small market because it has a mid tier payroll is a disservice to the truth... the payroll is fantastic for the market size, but the market size dictates maximum amount of revenue the team can take in anually.

 

People point to TB and Florida as teams that are winning with small payrolls... but they aren't doing it with established Major Leaguers, they are doing it mostly with prospects, that's the only way to have a payroll that small. I would hope that the Brewers wouldn't follow the Florida "fire sale" model... that just doesn't appeal to me personally at all. It's an old worn out comparison, but I still think that Minnesota and Oakland do the best job selling high on their players.

 

Player's in the free agent market? As in Hammonds, Gagne, Suppan, and Cameron? I guess we have a different definition of what being a player in free agency is. They can sign stop gap measures to be sure, but they aren't going to be able to sign impact players like Sheets and Sabathia with regularity, maybe 1 player every 5 or 6 years.

 

As far as buyers and sellers go, that's true if you're talking of deadline deals, which in fact I wasn't, I said "generally"... I dont' think rental player deals are in the best interests of this franchise period, and my opinion will not change unless the economics of baseball change. I wasn't speaking specifically to this year either as management has made it clear they are in "win now" mode. I was speaking more to off season moves and my opinion that it's in Brewer's best interests to stockpile talent and use that talent to plug gaps with players that will give the crew some longevity. For example, I would have been much happier if we had done the Sabathia deal for a pitcher like Shaun Marcum who's very good, very young and Toronto isn't in the race.

 

I feel that whatever side of this issue people come down on depends entirely on what their goals for the team are. I want a sustained high level of success for the franchise... some years they'll miss the playoffs, some years they'll make the playoffs. I'm a fairly patient person, I have no need to "win now", I'm more concerned with the longevity of the franchise. Other people will always want the Brewers to be making moves and "going for it"... this year is the year! I'm unsure if that will change if/when the Brewers finally return to the playoffs or not, as I feel it's fair to say that the 26 year playoff drought weighs heavily on some. As with all issues here, it's comes down to matter a perspective, and what we chose to believe in.

 

 

[MoneyballMan]

edit: The highest OBP on the Brewers right now, is Prince Fielder, at .360. Durham is at .385 this season, and .352 over his long career - he fills a need for sure.

 

Are you serious? I guess I hadn't noticed that. Everyone has been focused on fixing the bullpen for the 2nd half. I think at least a little attention needs to be placed on this terrible OBP stat! I'm surprised I hadn't notied that .360 was THE HIGHEST on the team. Wow. That certainly makes me more in favor of trading for Durham than I was when I went to bed early this morning. (And I do like a middle infield of Escobar/Hardy for the next 10 years....)

[splitterpfj]

Brewers' OBP....

 

Weeks .322

Hardy .350

Braun .331

Fielder .360

Hart .329

Hall .292

Branyan .325

Cameron .335

Kendall .338

 

The bench has fared better...

 

Kapler .350

Counsell .346

Dillon .354

Rivera .360

Gross was at .352

[naivin]

I think a Weeks/Durham platoon would give you very good production at the plate at the top of the lineup. Not quite Hanley Ramirez or Ian Kinsler, but very good OBP, .285+ average, and a little bit of power (mostly from Weeks). Durham provides some additional PH flexibility, and if those two can combine to get on base 40-ish% of the time, it looks as if the Brewers would have a difficult time losing games.

 

Now someone just need sto come up with a name...Raykie?

[MoneyballMan]

Some Giants blog (Giants Cove) is reporting Durham, Taschner and PTBNL for Salome, Nelson and Ford. But the blogger is hoping it will rather be Weeks, Gamel and Escobar coming back to the Giants. LOL But he admints that "Gamel and Escobar are two of the top prospects in Milwaukee's system (which tells me they probably won't be coming to San Francisco for the likes of Durham and Taschner)" Do ya think? Maybe if the included Lincecum.....

After reading that blog, I thought I was on a Cubs fan site!

[trwi7]

Some Giants blog (Giants Cove) is reporting Durham, Taschner and PTBNL for Salome, Nelson and Ford. But the blogger is hoping it will rather be Weeks, Gamel and Escobar coming back to the Giants. LOL But he admints that "Gamel and Escobar are two of the top prospects in Milwaukee's system (which tells me they probably won't be coming to San Francisco for the likes of Durham and Taschner)" Do ya think? Maybe if the included Lincecum.....

After reading that blog, I thought I was on a Cubs fan site!

 

From that same blog.

 

All in all it's not a terrible deal, but the Giants don't get anything sensational in return.

Please, Giants fans should be bowing to Sabean if he got Salome alone as a return for Taschner and Durham.

[monty57]

I'd have to guess that if they were to trade for Durham it would be so that they would have a leadoff hitter that could actually get on base. Therefore, Weeks would get significntly less playing time. Again, just a guess, but I would think that Weeks would either be sent back to AAA or would be involved in a trade.

 

I do note that he isn't a high OBP guy, which Beane seems to only trade for guys that take walks.

 

Weeks actually does walk (and get HBP) at a decent rate. His OBP is low due to an atrocious batting average.

 

I'm not sure if I like a Durham trade or not as he doesn't really add much as a bat off the bench, and would only "add significant value" by being our nearly-everyday leadoff hitter. If it's coupled with a trade of Weeks for a stud closer we'd control for a couple of years relatively cheaply it makes more sense.

[PeaveyFury]

Some Giants blog (Giants Cove) is reporting Durham, Taschner and PTBNL for Salome, Nelson and Ford.

 

That looks to be nothing more than wishful thinking on his part- he cites MLBtraderumors as his source, but when you go to the article there, MLBTR makes zero mention of what the deal would be beyond Durham, Taschner, and Ford (which we already knew).

[aracko]

Weeks is 15th in the NL in Runs scored. He is having a very good year. Thats what is needed from a leadoff hitter IMO

[JumpinMacFlash]

The latest on the JS blog from TH. Tom's friend at a San Francisco paper told him Durham's agent was working overtime last night. Also, apparently the Giants are fond of Brad Nelson.

 

Blog Update

[naivin]

From TH:

 

The Giants are looking for a catching prospect and would love to have Class AA Huntsville catcher Angel Salome, who is having a huge year. The Brewers have had trouble developing catchers, however, and I can't see them throwing Salome into a deal for just Durham and Taschner. They'd have to get more than that to part with Salome.

 

How about they just throw in Lincecum and we can call it even?

[PeaveyFury]

If they want Salome, we should want Cain. Seems like a larger deal might be feasible.

[And That]

The Giants are looking for a catching prospect and would love to have Class AA Huntsville catcher Angel Salome

I see your Angel Salome, and lower you Vinny Rottino. Or can I interest you in Carlos Corporan?

The only way Salome is included in the deal is if we get a lot more back than just Durham and Taschner. Even Brian Wilson wouldn't be enough, IMO.

[brettac1]

If they want Salome, we should want Cain. Seems like a larger deal might be feasible.

 

Sabean can't be that dumb, can he? To trade Cain for Salome? The guy is one of the best young pitchers in baseball.

[PeaveyFury]

Sabean can't be that dumb, can he? To trade Cain for Salome? The guy is one of the best young pitchers in baseball.

 

Well, if they're trying to get Salome involved in a deal for Taschner and Durham, it implies that either Sabean really doesn't think that highly of Salome after all, or that his sense of relative player values is way out of whack. I know which one of those options I think is the case....

 

It's somewhat hard to believe Durham has been in SF for 5 seasons already- I was somewhat surprised that he's a 10-and-5 guy.

[tigerbrew]

If they want Salome, we should want Cain. Seems like a larger deal might be feasible.

 

Sabean can't be that dumb, can he? To trade Cain for Salome? The guy is one of the best young pitchers in baseball.

I wouldn't mind throwing in Weeks with Salome, Nelson and Ford for Cain and Durham, that might make Sabean look better http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[twobrewers]

Sabean can't be that dumb, can he? To trade Cain for Salome?

No - he can't.

 

But if they really have their sights set on Salome, they need to give up way more than Durham and average relief pitching.

 

Salome, Weeks, and Jeffress for Cain would seem pretty fair to me.

[endaround]

I guess I just don't get most of this. Durham? Sure he's a better bet than Dillon to give you something and switch hits but there are better 2B about to enter FA available (Grudz, Ellis, and Hudson if Arizona tanks in the next two weeks) that would cost about the same as Durham with only the Mets likely shopping for one. Taschner's not any upgrade over Stetter and taking away inning from Stetter makes little sense for next year.

[Nader Raider Tim]

I don't see how there is any validity to the inclusion of Salome in almost any trade with San Fransisco. They just drafted Buster Posey this years uber-leet catching prospect, and one who probably should and will be fast tracked.

 

Salome dosen't make sense to be a player that they are targeting when they have a fabulous catching prospect soon to be flying through their minors. If the deal is Durham and Taschner, then yes maybe he brought up Salome or Brantley but there is no way those two players warrant giving up a prospect of that status. If the deal is for Cain, which is pure rumor, speculation and innuendo then Sabean could ask for and receive almost any prospect he wanted.

 

Salome is not leaving, not in this trade at least.

[mothershipconnection]

If Salome is involved in this trade, it means one of 3 things. 1) the return is better than Durham and Taschner, 2) Melvin has completely lost his mojo and turned into a moron, or 3) something's going on with Salome that we aren't hearing about (related to the failed drug test). His inclusion, at face value, makes very little sense. It could be the case that Attanasio told Melvin to avoid increasing payroll if at all possible and Sabean said he'd cover a huge chunk of Durham's salary if and only if we included Salome, and then this makes more sense.

[Wesrob1]

This is the Giants we're talking about. Surely they interested in whatever guys we have on the wrong side of 30!

[JumpinMacFlash]

Just reported on Baseball Tonight that the Durham trade has been completed, per Buster Olney.

 

Edit: TH says Hammond is in the deal. TH Blog