08/30/06 Brewers (Bush) @ Astros (Clemens) 7:05pm CDT

[hawing]

Well, this turned out to be a waste of an evening.

 

No kidding. I still have a lot to do tonight. Besides maybe sleep.

 

(No slam on present company intended.)

[rotoherb]

correct me if I'm wrong, but he could have just tagged the guy standing on first base and then tagged the bag for a DP, right? I'm pretty sure that the guy going to second doesn't have a right to first base at that point.

[rluzinski]

New and exiting ways to lose.

[cruiserx43]

Think Rillo thought he had time to get the force and the tag @home.

[cruiserx43]

correct me if I'm wrong, but he could have just tagged the guy standing on first base and then tagged the bag for a DP, right? I'm pretty sure that the guy going to second doesn't have a right to first base at that point.

 

Think it has to be done before the run scores.

[brewers255]

thats exacty what im wondering, doesnt the runner at 1st have to go? If it was a grounder.

[Team Canada]

correct me if I'm wrong, but he could have just tagged the guy standing on first base and then tagged the bag for a DP, right? I'm pretty sure that the guy going to second doesn't have a right to first base at that point.

 

You are correct sir.

[thablingster]

Hey. that's a new way to lose. It hurts just as much, but at least they're coming up with new stuff.

 

Cirillo's momentum made him fall on the bag, so either way the batter would have been out I think so it doesn't matter that he tagged it?

[rluzinski]

Nevermind. Misunderstood.

[And That]

I am now under the opinion this franchise is cursed.

[cruiserx43]

Jim and Ueck are going over the rule right now.

[wibadgers23]

Time to do something to shake up the offense a bit. And I dont mean just changing up the line-up. Bring up Gwynn, Rottino, others. Just to see what they can do. Probably wont happen until Nashville's season is over though.

[Bruce Ciskie]

Wow.

 

Tuned in last night just in time to see a .211 hitter hit a grand slam.

 

Tuned in tonight just in time to see...well, that.

 

Argh. See you guys next year. Thank goodness for football.

[bucks2281]

Unfortunately, the Brewers are 9 games under .500...this is the worst record over the past two seasons.

[And That]

Draft pick, here we come!

[DougJones43]

correct me if I'm wrong, but he could have just tagged the guy standing on first base and then tagged the bag for a DP, right? I'm pretty sure that the guy going to second doesn't have a right to first base at that point.

 

That is true, but it looked like Cirillo had already fallen on the base to force the hitter out at first anyway. And it would be near impossible to come up with the logic you used in the amount of time he had, I suspect. Cirillo is a pretty smart ballplayer.

[rotoherb]

I was yelling at the tv to do exactly that. I don't think it should be that hard to think of if you've played as much baseball as they have.

 

The only thing is if Cirillo fell on the bag as he caught it, but the ump did not call the runner out until he tagged the bag with his glove.

 

Of course, none of it really matters. They still stink.

[Shampoo4U]

But the Reds are losing 2-0.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[treego]

OK, I guess I'm still confused about that last play ... 2 questions for me to anyone who knows baseball rules better than I do:

 

1) Cirillo tagged 1st base on the grounder with the bases loaded ... okay, but don't the runners all have to still run on that play thereby making the play at home a force play? Why does making the throw to home after tagging first make the play at home a tag play as opposed to what would be a force play at home had Cirillo not tagged first base. The runner on 3rd had to run, regardless, didn't he?

 

2) Could Cirillo have tagged the runner on first after tagging the first base bag and completed the double play? The runner on first never vacated the area with just a few feet of first base. He was literally standing next to Cirillo after Cirillo stood up upon tagging the first base bag with his glove/ball.

 

Bizarre ending to say the least.

[And That]

Cirillo tagged 1st base on the grounder with the bases loaded ... okay, but don't the runners all have to still run on that play thereby making the play at home a force play? Why does making the throw to home after tagging first make the play at home a tag play as opposed to what would be a force play at home had Cirillo not tagged first base. The runner on 3rd had to run, regardless, didn't he?

 

No, once there is a force, the baserunners are free to run wherever ahead of the force. By "forcing" the runner at first, Cirillo made everyone else a live runner. Think of it as if two runners were standing at a base in a rundown - they both can't be out, so one can be safe. That makes all the bases eligible for a "safe" call to be made on runners.

[whizkid]

The way I saw it on the replay, Cirillo fell on the bag while catching the ball. Either way, as soon as 1st is touched the force is off, no runner has to run. He could have tagged the runner at first but as I recall, that runner was already back on the bag.

[treego]

Quote:

---

Cirillo tagged 1st base on the grounder with the bases loaded ... okay, but don't the runners all have to still run on that play thereby making the play at home a force play? Why does making the throw to home after tagging first make the play at home a tag play as opposed to what would be a force play at home had Cirillo not tagged first base. The runner on 3rd had to run, regardless, didn't he?

 

No, once there is a force, the baserunners are free to run wherever ahead of the force. By "forcing" the runner at first, Cirillo made everyone else a live runner. Think of it as if two runners were standing at a base in a rundown - they both can't be out, so one can be safe. That makes all the bases eligible for a "safe" call to be made on runners.

---

 

I guess I'm still not understanding. If runners are on 1st and 2nd and a groundball is hit to the 3rd baseman with one out. The 3rd baseman can step on the bag at 3rd and fire to either 2nd or 1st for another forceout. The first out (which was a forceout) didn't make the 2nd out anything other than a forceout, too.

 

Perhaps, you can clear this up for me by explaining what "ahead of the force" means. I'm thinking I'm understanding possibly as I type this, but I'm not sure.

 

Thank you.

[bucksman4]

Unfortunately, the Brewers are 9 games under .500...this is the worst record over the past two seasons.

 

And yet, Ned's job is safe huh? It's a joke. Melvin better seriously analyze this off-season whether Ned is the guy he wants to go long-term with to lead this franchise. Right now, I am in the opinion that a stern, hard-nosed, experienced major league manager is needed.

[DougJones43]

Think of it like this. The reason for a force is that the runner behind you HAS to advance to your base, because there are no empty bases anywhere behind you.

 

In your example (runners on 1st and 2nd), the step on 3rd base makes the guy who was on 2nd out. That leaves one runner at 1st, and the hitter (who has to advance to 1st). You can't have 2 guys on 1st, so that means the runner who started on 1st is forced to 2nd, with the hitter being forced to 1st. You can record an out at either base.

 

In the situation today, once Cirillo tagged 1st, the hitter was out, which means none of the runners in front of him were being forced forward. The runner who would have been forcing them all forward had been eliminated, so the runners didn't have to advance, and there was no force play anywhere.

 

I probably just made things more confusing.

[thablingster]

In your scenario, if the third basemen steps on third, the runner from second is out, but the runner from first has to go to second, because otherwise if he stays at first and the batter gets to first, if the ball is thrown to first the runner originally on first will be out.

 

The "ahead of the force" thing applies to bases ahead of the base tagged for the force.

 

For example, bases are loaded with no outs, Graffy playing 2B gets a ball and steps on second to force the runner from first, then throws home. The runner on second can now continue running to third or go back to second, because second base is unoccupied. The runner from third can now go back to third or continue going home, because the runner from second no longer has to go to third if he doesn't want to. If they both end up on third, hopefully we don't throw the ball into left field and someone is tagged out, but the runners are no longer forced to go to a specific base.

 

With the Cirillo play, first base was tagged, so Berkman did not have to go to second, Biggio didn't have to go to third, and the guy on third didn't have to go home. That guy and Biggio decided to go anyway, but Berkman went back to first and was thus safe because first was unoccupied by the batter, who was out.