Where do you rank JJ Hardy among MLB Shortstops?/Hardy named NL Player of the Week (reply #91)

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

This is how I would categorize the shortstops in MLB in 2008:

 

Tier 1

 

Hanley Ramirez

Jimmy Rollins

Jose Reyes

 

Tier 2

 

Miguel Tejada

Troy Tulowitski

Yunel Escobar

Michael Young

 

Tier 3

 

Derek Jeter

Rafael Furcal

Orlando Cabrera

Edgar Renteria

JJ Hardy

Johnny Peralta

Adam Everett

 

Tier 4

 

C. Guzman

Ryan Theriot

Khalil Greene

Jack Wilson

Jerry Hairston

Bobby Crosby

Y. Betancourt

Stephan Drew

David Eckstein

 

Tier 5

 

M. Izturis

Jason Bartlett

Julio Lugo

Brendan Ryan

Omar Vizquel

Freddie Bynum

Tony Pena

 

 

 

Note that I didn't actually rank the shortstops. I just put them in tiers so if one is higher than the other within a tier, that doesn't necessarily mean I think they are better. I think that is a fair categorization for Hardy. Although I wouldn't have put him that high had he not played so well in the past month. I tried to weigh in both offense and defense. Did I make any clear blunders?

[lcbj68c]

13th out of 30 sounds about right. I'd love to get a long term deal for Hardy done. The problem with your list is that it doesn't break the tier's down evenly. In that one tier will have 3 players and another tier have 9 players. You have JJ at the bottom of the average tier, but yet at 13, he's almost around the top 1/3rd of the league.

[jazzytrav]

I may be in the minority, but I don't think Jose Reyes deserves to be in the same tier as Rollins and Ramirez. Could just be my anti-New York bias.

[razzzorsharp]

Around the same lines as Greene and Drew. Pretty average with a solid career. I like him on the team, not looking for an upgrade, but would prefer to have him be the weakspot in the lineup.

 

On a different note how do you rate the NL SS (Reyes, Rollins, and Rameriz) to that of the quartet of Nomar, Jeter, Arod, and Tejeda that everyone raved about for three years or so.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Overall, I think you did a good job, but you've got too much weight placed on this season. My takes:

 

Too low: Peralta

Too high: Furcal, Guzman, Theriot

 

And I'm not sure where I'd put Tulowitzki and Escobar. Too little information - basically one major league season for both, and they were both rushed through the minors pretty quickly. I don't see anything wrong with putting them as high as you have, necessarily, it's just that it is hard to feel very confident in that assessment.

[brewizard]

I figured someone would start a Hardy thread.

 

I think the thing with Hardy is that he can get really hot at the plate and can play solid D with his gun of an arm. And I think his career year is still ahead of him. Jeter's and Tejada's are likely in the rearview mirror.

 

The Brewers should lock him up - I think Hardy wants to be a Brewer. But I have a weird feeling the Brewers will trade Hardy disastrously. Call it a bad dream...

[And That]

Hardy is about a middle of the road defender, a little below average overall due to his lack of range. Hardy is about a middle of the road offensive player, a little above when he's on.

 

I think that puts him about in the middle.

[lcbj68c]

Did you also take into account his ability to act?

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

13th out of 30 sounds about right. I'd love to get a long term deal for Hardy done. The problem with your list is that it doesn't break the tier's down evenly. In that one tier will have 3 players and another tier have 9 players. You have JJ at the bottom of the average tier, but yet at 13, he's almost around the top 1/3rd of the league.

 

If you read my post again, you'll see that I didn't rank Hardy as the 13th best SS. I just put him in the 3rd tier. Also, I didn't put the tiers evenly disbursed for a reason. I wouldn't consider Tejada in the same tier as Hanley Ramirez, but if I were to split them evenly then he would be.

 

Overall, I think you did a good job, but you've got too much weight placed on this season. My takes:

 

Too low: Peralta

Too high: Furcal, Guzman, Theriot

 

I think I agree with you on those after thinking about it some more. I will edit my initial post. Theriot is an interesting one though because he has a horrible offensive track record before this year, but his defense isn't good enough probably to be in tier 3 despite the job he has done at the plate this year.

 

I may be in the minority, but I don't think Jose Reyes deserves to be in the same tier as Rollins and Ramirez. Could just be my anti-New York bias.

 

I think an OPS over 800 with the great defense he plays is enough justification for tier 1.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

On a different note how do you rate the NL SS (Reyes, Rollins, and Rameriz) to that of the quartet of Nomar, Jeter, Arod, and Tejeda that everyone raved about for three years or so.

That's a tough one. I'd prolly put ARod above them all and rank them as such:

 

ARod

Ramirez

Rollins

Tejada

Jeter

Reyes

Nomar

 

That's just my initial feeling though. I could be convinced otherwise.

[nate82]

Tier 1

 

Hanley Ramirez

Jimmy Rollins

Troy Tulowitzki

 

Tier 2

 

Jose Reyes

Yunel Escobar

Michael Young

Orlando Cabrera

 

Tier 3

 

Derek Jeter

Miguel Tejada

Christian Guzman

Rafael Furcal

Edgar Renteria

JJ Hardy

Johnny Peralta

Stephan Drew

Khalil Greene

 

Tier 4

 

Ryan Theriot

Jack Wilson

Adam Everett

Jerry Hairston

Bobby Crosby

Y. Betancourt

 

Tier 5

 

David Eckstein

M. Izturis

Jason Bartlett

Julio Lugo

Brendan Ryan

Omar Vizquel

Freddie Bynum

Tony Pena

 

I put Tulo in tier 1 because he has one of the best gloves and range for a short stop out of all of the short stops in the league.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I put Tulo in tier 1 because he has one of the best gloves and range for a short stop out of all of the short stops in the league.

I definitely can see that point of view. The reason I put him in tier 2 was because of the injury he had so I didn't have much to go on for 2008. What is your justification for putting Cabrera in tier 2? His bat has been pretty weak.

[nate82]

Also you are devaluing Orlando Cabrera and yet putting Yunel Escobar higher. Both are about equal in defense but I believe Orlando will have a better career hitting than Yunel will. Also Stephen Drew is about on par with Hardy. Both are tier 3 short stops in the league. Also Jeter and Tejada can really no longer be considered top of the line short stops anymore. Both of their range and to a lesser degree their offense has been declining.

[Fatter than Joey]

I agree more with Nate's list than the original -- but the original i think is about right.

 

I'd be tempted to move Everett up a tier.

 

Tulo has an incredible arm as well.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Also you are devaluing Orlando Cabrera and yet putting Yunel Escobar higher. Both are about equal in defense but I believe Orlando will have a better career hitting than Yunel will. Also Stephen Drew is about on par with Hardy. Both are tier 3 short stops in the league. Also Jeter and Tejada can really no longer be considered top of the line short stops anymore. Both of their range and to a lesser degree their offense has been declining

Escobar's OPS is significatly higher than Cabrera's while Escobar plays pretty darn good defense. Remember, my tiers are based on 2008 not over a career. If it was over a career, Vizquel would be way higher. Unless you think Cabrera's defense is that much better than Escobar, I think my categorization is valid.

 

I'd be tempted to move Everett up a tier.

I think I agree with that as well. Everett's bat is just plain bad, but his defense is about as good as it gets. That should be enough to get into tier 3. For me, in order to get into tier 2 in today's game, you have to have the bat along with it, but tier 3 is fine. I will edit my initial post.

 

I think I changed my mind on Derek Jeter as well so I'm going to move him down to tier 3. His OPS just isn't good enough for tier 2, while his defense has declined over the years.

[dadofandrew]

Drwew too low, Everett too high. Other than that, accurate.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Everett is almost a tweener so that one is tough, but is Drew really that good? He has a .293 OBP. I think he's kind of overrated.

[homer]

I guess it depends on if you rank by performance or ceiling. They might be very different lists - especially for a guy like Drew.

[Oldcity]

I agree that Hardy is right around average to slightly above average. Tulo is in the top tier in my eyes too.

[kramnoj]

ZR currently has Hardy as 20th among qualified SS. That puts him below Hanley Ramirez, so I won't put full weight behind that, but it is something to consider. Runs Created has Hardy as 14th among SS and he has the 6th highest OPS among SS (last night obviously helped, he's just ahead of Jimmy Rollins right now). I would say he's basically in the middle tier, as has already been said. Just putting some numbers behind it.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I guess it depends on if you rank by performance or ceiling. They might be very different lists - especially for a guy like Drew.

This is based on performance. I think I'm going to come out with more of these for each position. This has been quite fun.

[owbc]

Is JJ Hardy the new Geoff Jenkins? They are both solid defenders and this is the second time JJ's gone on a ridiculous hot streak after a long stretch of mediocre offense. Also, Yost looks like a genius for giving him a few days off, hopefully the same thing happens with Braun.

[recte44]

JSOnline blog:

 

"Hardy is out of his mind. I mean, out of his mind."

[crossface21]

He's just raking off of Brandon Webb. The guy is playing himself into the All-Star game!

[zzzmanwitz]

Tier 1

JJ Hardy

 

Tier 2

(Empty)

 

Tier 3

Everyone Else