Are we better off with Counsell this year?

[DougJones43]

I was just examining the production from both Counsell and Weeks for this year. Here are their stat lines for 2008:

 

Weeks: .210/.325/.358/.683

Counsell: .258/.348/.357/.705

 

I was pretty surprised to see that Counsell's SLG is on par with Weeks this year. Counsell also holds a big edge in defense and situational hitting. With the high volume of hit-or-miss batters already in the lineup (Braun, Branyan, Hall, and Cameron), is it possible that Counsell might be the Brewers better option to have in the lineup at 2B for the remainder of this year?

 

Obviously, Weeks has a lot of advantages over Counsell as well though. Speed, youth, ability - and it should be noted that he got very hot late in the season in 2007. Still, I wonder if, all things considered, the Brewers might be better off with somebody like Counsell in the lineup for the short term.

[Fatter than Joey]

I think Counsell would decline if he played every day for long stretches -- because he is older.

 

If I were Yost, I'd certainly try to keep him sharp though.

[dlk9s]

I think Counsell would decline if he played every day for long stretches -- because he is older.

 

If I were Yost, I'd certainly try to keep him sharp though.

Agreed. He definitely filled in admirably while Weeks was on the DL. I know grittiness and scrapiness (Ecksteininess) is overrated, but it's still nice to have a guy or two like that on the team.

 

[PeaveyFury]

Rickie has single-handedly flubbed away two outs already today, and it's the 5th inning. It's becoming harder and harder to live with Rickie's defense, honestly.

[logan82]

I would write-off today as Weeks just being a bit rusty. Over the whole season I don't think there is any way Weeks has a BA as low as it is now. He still has a really good split between his BA and OBP so when his BA comes up his OBP will look great.

[Invader3K]

I would write-off today as Weeks just being a bit rusty.

What about all his other games? He doesn't have as many errors this year, but I wouldn't say he has looked particularly sharp at any point this year, as far as defense.

[Glennron]

He made a fantastic play in the 7th and turned like 5 double plays, furthering the point he can botch some easy plays and make some great ones. He also had two sharply hit balls that didn't fall in.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Rickie Weeks cannot hit. I'm sorry. Hopefully, I'll be proven very wrong, and soon. But there are only so many excuses you can tolerate.

[rluzinski]

Rickie Weeks cannot hit. I'm sorry.

 

Weeks, 2007: .235/.374/.433/.807

 

We can argue about whether we think Weeks can repeat that but you don't have to look very far back to find a seaon in which he hit well. Now, his defense...

[Invader3K]

.235 generally isn't regarded as hitting "well." Yes, his OBP was nice, but that doesn't always cut it.

[logan82]

The leadoff spot is actually a really good place to put a guy who gets on base without hitting as a BB, HBP and single have almost the same value.

[And That]

Last year Weeks had the 10th best OPS of the 27 second basemen who qualified for the batting title. He also had the 8th best OBP of that group. That's hitting pretty well IMO.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

.235 generally isn't regarded as hitting "well." Yes, his OBP was nice, but that doesn't always cut it.

Exactly. He hasn't shown that he can "hit" since AAA.

 

[DougJones43]

I would write-off today as Weeks just being a bit rusty.

If a 15-day DL stint makes you so rusty that you can't even catch balls thrown to you, one really has to wonder about the defensive skill level of the player involved. I haven't played organized baseball since highschool, but I'm pretty sure I could handle a game of catch...

 

Regardless, as somebody pointed out earlier, what's the explanation for the awful defense he has played during the rest of his career? It's true that his errors might be down this year, but his metrics still aren't very good, and he still looks pretty awkward at times.

[And That]

Weeks' defensive metrics aren't top notch, but they've been trending upward his entire career and IMO they're reaching a level where he's no longer a defensive liability. With the caveat that it's still kind of early to put a ton of weight in these stats, he's 13th of 22 qualified second basemen in RZR and has an OOZ rate as high as anyone not named Adam Kennedy or Chase Utley. That suggests to me that his perceived defensive deficiencies at second base are more based on the memories of previous terribleness than what it actually going on now.

 

From a personal point of view, I'm to the point where I no longer wince when a ball is hit in his vicinity. But that's totally subjective. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[logan82]

DougJones43 wrote:

his metrics still aren't very good, and he still looks pretty awkward at times.

It is interesting to note that his metrics this year are better or almost the same as the metrics for Brian Roberts who seems to come up as a name we should trade for in almost every Weeks discussion this year. One of the reasons cited to get Roberts over Weeks almost always seems to be that he plays better defense than Weeks.

[DuWayne Steurer]

.235 generally isn't regarded as hitting "well." Yes, his OBP was nice, but that doesn't always cut it.

If batting average were a reliable tell all of a players offensive ability, I could buy that, but it's not. A guy who hits .280 with little power and doesn't take walks (David Eckstein) is a lot less valuable than a guy who hits .235 with 15+ homers and an OBP .100 pts or higher than his BA.

 

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I would look into keeping Counsell, but another option would be to have Escobar take that utility role next year. It's debatable though, whether you want a top prospect not playing the same position every day. It's nice to have a veteran like Counsell who can spell Hardy and Weeks while doing an average job.

[kramnoj]

In my opinion, I would love to have Counsell back next year, it's just a question of budget. If the Brewers keep Sheets and all their arby players, it might be tough to fit Counsell in there as well. The utility role might go to Crabbe, or Irribarren, or make Hall the platoon 3B and spot him at other positions as needed (although his defense has slipped this year, not exactly what you want out of the utility infielder).

[rluzinski]

235 generally isn't regarded as hitting "well." Yes, his OBP was nice, but that doesn't always cut it.

 

Alex Sanchez would love you guys but if you use only BA, you are often going to come to some pretty bad conclusions when trying to evaluate a player's offensive performance. This is a very good example of that. Weeks got on base at a great clip and hit for decent power (need to have a lot of extra base hits to have a SLG over .400 with such a low BA). For a 2B, he had a very good offensive year.

[ELCABALLO45]

Weeks better start picking it up

[crewcrazy]

Weeks had two fly outs today that were scalded off the bat but hit right at the outfielders. If those dropped in (or if one of those even dropped in), would we be talking about how he had a horrible game? He had a couple bad plays in the first few innings today, but did a very good job of turning all of those double plays and had that nice spinning stop in the 7th. I also a remember a nice effort to keep the ball in the infield early in the game -- he didn't get the out, but I was pretty impressed that he even got to the ball. He even drew a walk in the 5th inning with two outs that kept the inning alive and allowed Hardy to drive in Kapler to give the Brewers a 4-3 lead. It was an okay first game back, in my opinion. I still believe the hits will come eventually this year...he might never be a .280-.300 hitter, but if he can keep his average around .250 or .260, he has a chance to post an OBP in the high .300's, which would be great at the top of the lineup, especially since it seems like he always ends up scoring when he actually does get on base.

 

Counsell played well while filling in for Weeks, but I don't think he should get more than 1-2 starts per week (day games after night games, Hardy's weekly game off to keep his shoulder fresh, etc.). I just wish Ned would stop hitting him leadoff when Rickie's not in the lineup (although I will admit there aren't many other attractive options, but that's why Weeks is there to begin with).

[naivin]

I just randomly picked this thread to put this in, because this guy deserves some love. He came up absolutely massive this last week (yesterday and Thursday in particular), by doing the things he was brought here to do. He didn't necessarily deliver the big blows, but if he didn't do what he did, the big blows may never have happened. If for instance, Bill Hall were out there in the same situations, I'm not sure we aren't saying very different things around here today.

[dadofandrew]

.355 OBP for the year and a .450 OBP in September, plus very good defense...you bet he deserves a lot of credit. He fit the mold of the lefty OBP 3B very nicely.

 

The irony here is, every year they talk about adding good defense and OBP, and when Craig provides both, all we hear is he lacks power. 3 run HR's win a lot of games, but you do not need that from all 8 spots. He and Jason were a very nice bottom of the order, as they take a lot of pitches, work the count, and get past the pitcher's spot often.

 

The way he worked the walk, after seeing Hart swing and miss at 3 sliders out of the strike zone, was simply beautiful. He's one of the true unsung heroes on this team.

[homer]

Counsell for manager in '09! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif