The CC Sabathia thread: Latest - CC a Brewer! (part 1)

[GAME05]

i think the same thing as And That about trading Jeffress. he's roughly it as far as our top-end pitching prospects go, and with the cost of FA pitching and the fickle nature of pitchers in general, i think that makes him even more valuable.

 

but then we'd still have to give up something, and it's hard to figure a package featuring someone on the level of Charlie Fermaint would really cut it.

 

and we can't forget half the benefit of trading for a starter mid-season is it gives us that much more time to talk the player into signing for 09.

[fondybrewfan]

After thinking about this I might be coming around

 

1. a CC trade would have to involve LaPorta or Gamel

2. We obviously wouldn't resign CC so we would be getting 2 high draft picks

3. So if we trade just for example LaPorta, Salome, and Seidel we would essentially be trading 3 prospects for 2 picks + Sabathia.

 

It just seems that the net effect of the trade could be a positive one, even if it is a 2 month rental, so long as we are left with at least one of Gamel / LaPorta. I would rather keep Gamel because of his superstar offensive numbers. And since all of our young guys are still under our control for 2 more years we have two years before we "need" the next group of young guys. And of course any trade of Fielder would allow us to restock our farm system anyways. With our 6 top picks this year it is safe to say that at least one of them will develop into a LaPorta/Gamel type prospect.

 

Even with the trade of the proposed players we still have these players available to us in 2 years (assuming no Fielder trade)

 

1st Base - Fielder, Errecart, Nelson, Gamel

2nd Base - Weeks, Bell

SS - Hardy, Escobar, Dykstra, Brewer

3rd - Gamel, Green, Hall?

OF - Gamel, Braun, Hart, Brantley, Gillespie, Cain, Dykstra

C- LuCroy, Lawrie, Rottino

 

Pitchers - Gallardo, Parra, Jeffress, Odorizzi, Fredrickson, Lintz, Braddock, Periard, Anundsen, Hammond, Wright, maybe Sheets or other FA/Trade pick up

 

This list doesn't even include the two picks from Sabathia and all other draft picks in the next 2 years. Its safe to say that we would certainly have enough prospects to keep the train rolling in Milwaukee, even if some of them don't turn out. I think we are pretty weak at 2nd if Weeks doesn't pan out soon but besides that we have plenty of options and all positions and pitchers. Plus Cleveland is in the AL so I am not going to worry of LaPorta does turn out to be very good.

[paul253]

Taking a completely opposite approach, what about trading both Fielder and Sheets at the deadline? I know it would be giving up on this year, but I'd guess we could get 3 potential top of the rotation starters out of it, plus maybe some infield prospects to possibly replace Hardy and Weeks down the line. We could really set up well for the future. I just hate to lose Sheets for nothing more than 2 draft picks, because the chances of them turning into the kind of players we could get in a trade is relatively low. As far as Fielder go, we pretty much have a replacement for him in either LaPorta or Gamel, and his value is probably not going to get much higher because the team who gets him wont have to resign him for awhile. Again, the players we could get in return would set us up very well for the next 3 to 4 years.

[Fear The Chorizo]

If C.C. gets traded, he'll go to free agency regardless of where he's traded to - I'm sure he'll get tons of pressure from the player's union (As will Sheets) to become a free agent and make sure the price tag for pitching stays sky-high.

 

If Cleveland is serious about making one last effort to resign him and it doesn't happen, then I would think his value isn't as over-the-top as what the Mariners gave up for Bedard, a pitcher who at the time of the trade was under Mariner control for 2 full seasons. GMs are going to balk at giving up that much, and unless the Red Sox and Yankees start dangling some of their young arms out there for him, I don't see how a bidding war can break out for Sabathia that would lead to a monumental prospect haul for the Indians.

 

The Brewers have enough depth in their farm system to put together an attractive package of players and not empty their cupboard - the important thing is for their scouting department to have a firm grasp on what prospects are at maximum value right now that will have the poorest chance of excelling at the major league level, and what prospects need to be viewed as untouchable.

 

IMO, almost any trade package consisting of 3 prospects in order to acquire Sabathia for a 2.5 month rental + Type A draft picks is fine by me, as long as the package doesn't include both LaPorta and Gamel. It's been 26 years, and I think this is the season where they should take a really legitimate shot at getting over the hump, as long as it doesn't completely decimate the farm system. Position-playerwise, the Brewers can afford to deal a few prospects, because that is where the strength of their homegrown talent lies organization-wide. I think there are too many unknowns with how the roster is going to look in 2009 to assume they'll automatically be contenders next season - if the Brewers don't fall on their face over the next 10 games, I think they have to at least give acquiring C.C. a legit shot.

[lcbj68c]

Are the chances of signing Sabathia in the off-season really 0% ? I dont know much about Sabathia's history or age, but is he worth Santana money given those things? If we throw Santana money at him, he would certainly resign? No? We probably can't get both Santana and Sheets. But how about 6yrs at 120M for Sabathia? Is 6 yrs too long? How long until his decline? I realize these are a lot of questions, but these are the questions I have before I can make an opinion.

[Fear The Chorizo]

"Taking a completely opposite approach, what about trading both Fielder and Sheets at the deadline? I know it would be giving up on this year, but I'd guess we could get 3 potential top of the rotation starters out of it, plus maybe some infield prospects to possibly replace Hardy and Weeks down the line. "

 

Huge difference between potential top of the rotation starters and a known top of the rotation starter - the Brewers would be foolish for expecting a haul of young arms for a rental of Sheets, or even for 3 years of Fielder. There are very few (if any) organizations who posess that kind of talent that are willing to trade it away for older, much more expensive players. If Milwaukee trades either of these guys before they lose control of them, they're not going to get equal value. The only way I can see trading Fielder is if they get blown away by an offer in an offseason, or during his free agent year if they're not contending.

 

I think Fielder's trade value is nowhere near as high as some people here think - Texeira's a free agent this offseason, and the big market teams would much rather pay top dollar for him than trade the farm away for a guy who basically should be a DH now, and who will plan on becoming a free agent in a few more seasons.

[lcbj68c]

I wouldn't have a problem with trading Fielder and Sheets at the deadline. However, I dont see needing to replace Hardy. Weeks, yeah, he can go. But Hardy, according to many, is a top 10 in defense at his position.

[ILuvDaBush]

Crazy video game trade idea.

 

Sheets

Fielder

Torres

Jr. Gwynny

 

for

 

Granderson

Bonderman

Porcello

Zumaya

 

The only problem for the Brewers would be how it puts a stop sign on our minor league outfielders, or allow us to trade Granderson or Hart. Nevertheless, Granderson has a long term contract and I'd be willing to take a flyer on Bonderman. Porcello and Zumaya are big-time arms, while the Tigers get the hottest closer in baseball. Definitely video game only, and honestly, I think higher of Sheets and Prince than most, and would probably tell the Tigers to shop elsewhere, but if we were going to package them, you could do worse.

[paul253]

Huge difference between potential top of the rotation starters and a known top of the rotation starter - the Brewers would be foolish for expecting a haul of young arms for a rental of Sheets, or even for 3 years of Fielder

 

True, but a) we're going to lose Sheets anyway and b) even if the two picks we get in return turn into top of the line prospects, thats still one less than i think you could get in return. I'd much much rather take my chances with 3 guys at AA or higher than with 2 draft picks. And they wouldnt be foolish to expect 3 arms in return for the two. The Yankees were offering a major league ready pitcher who at the time was a very good prospect (Hughes) plus prospects for Santana in the offseason and its been said you get more for a pitcher at the deadline. Sheets is outperforming Santana. Teams like Boston, Tampa Bay, the Yankees..they have the pitching prospects to trade us. I dont think its foolish at all to expect two potential 1 or 2 pitchers for Sheets. Then Im sure you could get another one plus some for Fielder. You have Parra, Gallardo, and Suppan for next year, but after that the pickings are kind of slim. And unless you are going to overspend for an average pitcher like they did with Suppan, the options are kind of limited to Bush, Capuano, Villanueva, and McClung.

[zurch1818]

Found this little tidbit on JM Gold.

 

This article talks about joining Gold joining Neugebauer on the Brewers roster after he rehabs from his TJ surgery. I hope none of the guys we drafted this year turn into a JM Gold.

[monty57]

The only way the Brewers should trade Sheets is if they fall out of the playoff race. Three weeks ago, it looked like this may be an option. Now that they've been one of the hottest teams in baseball and have the third best record in the NL, they'd be foolish to trade Sheets, as they would basically kill their chances at the playoffs and lose a lot of fans in the process. The same could be said of trading Fielder during this season. In the offseason, I could see Fiellder dealt, but not this year.

As far as Sabathia, I'd love to see him as a Brewer, as he would definitely help us make the playoffs, and would make for a formidable playoff rotation. However, it would be hard to watch LaPorta belting out 40 HR / year for the Indians long after Fielder has left as a free agent. I'll have to have faith in Melvin that he can "see the future" far better than I, and if he does land Sabathia I hope it won't hurt our future.

[rotoherb]

I haven't read every post here, but it seems to me that most people think that it would take Gamel or LaPorta to get Sabathia. I may be in the minority, but I doubt that the Indians will get a player like that in return. Just looking back at the last four or five years of deadline trading would seem to indicate that the Indians won't be able to get that high of a prospect for him. Players with just two months left on their contract just don't bring back as much as people think. For example, when the Royals traded Beltran in 2004 they got Travis Buck, Mike Wood and Mark Teahen in return. All were solid prospects, but none were top of the line. Here are all of the deadline trades going back to 2004. It's hard to find a solid comp to Sabathia, but you'll see that no two month rental player gets a Gamel or LaPorta in return.

 

http://www.mlb.com/mlb/news/trade_deadline/index_04.jsp

http://www.mlb.com/mlb/news/trade_deadline/index_05.jsp

http://www.mlb.com/mlb/news/trade_deadline/index_06.jsp

http://www.mlb.com/mlb/news/trade_deadline/index_07.jsp

 

I do think that the Brewers could put something together that is enough to get Sabathia, but I don't think they'd need to use Gamel, LaPorta or Jeffress.

[jjfanec]

The last question that Sparky asked him was whether or not there is anyone in the farm system that is "untouchable". Melvin without mentioning names, said, yes there are a few untouchables. He felt that if he were to go after a "big" name, with only two months left on his contract, he wouldn't trade one of his untouchables that he controls for seven years for just 10 starts down the stretch. He said, he would do a "quantity" trade instead of one premiere prospect for a big name, possibly like C.C. Sabathia.

 

Oh and of course, Ben Sheets is not going to be traded- (news event of the year).

Just thought I would bring this post back up. This is a serious question. For those of you who think the Brewers will (or even should) trade Gamel or LaPorta to get CC do you think Melvin is lying in this interview, do you think he will change his mind near the trading deadline, or do you simply think he should be willing to deal one of those guys? To me the statement seemed to say he was going to trade Gamel or LaPorta for a guy like CC, but that he would do a prospect package which is what I am in favor of. Now again you have to take Melvin's comments with a grain of salt because he has be known to not want to tip his hand.

[logan82]

I am flat out stunned that anybody would even consider trading Sheets of Fielder at this point in the season. If we fall way back by the end of July I could understand, but not right now.

[Never Outhustled]

I am flat out stunned that anybody would even consider trading Sheets of Fielder at this point in the season

You must be a huge Dave Bush fan if your against trading Fielder. There were a few pitchers who had as many or more win shares than Fielder last year, and a ton of them this year. If the Brewers can trade Fielder, or trade the prospects they net from Fielder, for 1 of these pitchers, then Fielders replacement, Matt LaPorta or Matt Gamel, only have to outproduce Dave Bush to improve the team. I think those guys could do that in there sleep.

[paulmolitor4]

Fielder will NOT be traded at any point during the season. That's a guarantee. I'm not saying that's the right move or the wrong move, but it's not going to happen. Melvin will be able to get much more for him in a trade in the offseason if he were to trade him. Now Sheets could be dealt during the season, but the Brewers will have to fall flat on their face for that to happen.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Guys you can save the internet space, Sheets and Fielder are not going anywhere unless we collapse before the JUly deadline. Take a look at our July schedule, lots of home games, very unlikely. In case you guys haven't checked we're 2 games out of the wildcard.

[splitterpfj]

From Peter Gammons' Insider Blog...

 

"Don't be surprised if Cleveland moves quickly on Sabathia."

 

"The Brewers make the most sense if they figure out a way to take some of the Ben Sheets money and give it to Sabathia."

 

"Two well-respected talent evaluators say Huntsville is the best prospect team in the minors. Another says Huntsville has five legitimate starting major leaguers, and one other called Huntsville "the best prospect team our scout's ever seen."

 

The Cardinals and Cubs are both concerned about the Brewers - "They also know that the Brewers have an antsy owner and that Melvin is one of shrewdest general managers in the game."

[Postseason2006]

I would deal LaPorta and players but not Gamel. IMO, he's got more upside and will be the better hitter overall.

[Oldcity]

"They also know that the Brewers have an antsy owner and that Melvin is one of shrewdest general managers in the game."

I hope Doug remembers this. I'd really hate to lose Gamel, LaPorta or Jeffress for a rental...

 

[JoeHova]

I would deal LaPorta and players but not Gamel. IMO, he's got more upside and will be the better hitter overall.

 

 

The question I have is, how likely is Gamel to hit .330 or above in the majors? I don't think it's very likely, which makes me prefer LaPorta's secondary skills (by a slight amount) to Gamel's. Now, if Gamel can play a legit ML 3rd base, maybe things are different, but that doesn't seem to be the case yet.

[endaround]

And I'd trade neither for Sabathia when there are other pitchers out there with contracts lasting longer than 3 months that are available

[southpaw121505]

I would deal LaPorta and players but not Gamel. IMO, he's got more upside and will be the better hitter overall.


Same here. I'd be more willing to deal LaPorta, even though I prefer to keep both. I'm in the boat that it will not take either one for a rental. If we're trading for a guy that the team will control beyond this year like a Grienke, Lincecum, Cain, etc. then that's a different story. I don't think a rental, even a stud ace caliber left handed pitcher will net TOP prospects. LaPorta and Gamel are not just our top prospects, they are two of the best hitting prospects in the minors. If that's the asking price for a rental I'll pass.

I would be on board with trading some quantity for him though. Just imagining the four picks our way next June is pretty exciting, let alone the thought of that rotation down the stretch this year. Am I the only one that is still tickled by hearing national guys linking us as buyers for the top player available?

[thebruce44]

I really don't get why people think we would have to give up LaPorta or Gamel to get CC. That never happens anymore.

 

Even if the trade was to occure at the beginning of the year (similar to the Mets-Twins swap for Santana) I would question giving up one of these two. If it happens, it will be a combination of 2 of our 4-6 prospects with a major leaguer or two lower level prospects thrown in. The reason we are high up on these lists is because the level of talent we have at 4-6 is very high (or much higher than the other interested teams). Keep in mind Escobar would be the #1 prospect for a lot of teams and a guy like Luis Pena has a tremendous amount of value around the league.

[Invader3K]

Interesting comments from Gammons, but I don't get the part about "giving some of the Sheets money to Sabathia." Is he saying the Brewers would try to sign him to an extension immediately if they did acquire him, and forego any attempt to re-sign Sheets, or that Sheets would get traded if they acquire Sabathia (which makes no sense at all)? I'm kind of confused.

 

I do agree that LaPorta and Gamel will probably not have to be traded for Sabathia. I could see a package of three or four mid-level type prospects getting him. Like has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, teams have been giving up less and less for two month rentals, over the past few years.