Braun v Fukudome - VOTE NOW FOR THE ALL-STAR GAME (merged with Braun 4th in All-Star voting)

[cwolf2012]

The current reality is that, based on the stats you present in your tables, at least 2 of the top three vote getters for OF are currently less deserving than Braun. How deserving are Griffey and Soriano, if we are basing things on this season? Do any of those who rank above Braun in your tables have a realistic hope of catching Griffey?

That's a completely different part of the argument. If you ask me if Braun should be ahead of those 3 jokers, then my answer is a very loud "YES, YES, DEAR GOD YES!" But that's not really the argument. In fact, I don't think anyone from either side of this debate thinks Fukudome, Soriano, or Griffey deserves the allstar bid.

 

[rluzinski]

I personally am shocked with the amount of venom that objectivity is being met with here.

 

Frankly, I'm not anymore. Trying to have rationale discussions on this board is becoming very difficult. I spend a lot of time writing up what I hope to be a good explanation for the opinions that I hold and they continue to be shot down with one sentence, staw-man counter arguments that make little or no sense. I don't expect to be able to sway many with my arguments but I doubt most arguing so strongly against me even take the time to even read and understand what I'm trying to say. I'm wasting my time.

 

It seems like "He doesn't walk enough" is the ultimate cookie cutter argument when someone wants to criticize a player for his offense.

 

Yes, that explains my motivation perfectly. I simply don't like Ryan Braun and will do anything in my power to destroy him. You have exposed me as the fraud that I am. Well played.

 

Exit, stage right.

[jeffy]

Someone pointed out yesterday (before Braun's huge game) that he was 10th in the NL in OPS among outfielders.

Now 7th and only .032 away from the #3 outfielder in that stat. If few guys make an out in their next AB, while Braun hits another HR, he is probably about tied for #3.

[jeffy]

If you ask me if Braun should be ahead of those 3 jokers, then my answer is a very loud "YES, YES, DEAR GOD YES!" But that's not really the argument. In fact, I don't think anyone from either side of this debate thinks Fukudome, Soriano, or Griffey deserves the allstar bid.

 

I understand that, I guess my point is some are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here. Even if you think he is not one of the top 3 Ofers, if it would be better/fairer for Braun to make the starting all-star team than anyone else who has a realistic chance of making it and you are a Brewer fan why not vote for the guy?

[lcbj68c]

be better/fairer for Braun to make the starting all-star team than anyone else who has a realistic chance of making it and you are a Brewer fan why not vote for the guy?

Because he's horrible, his OBP is .312

edited 1 time...in the words of Casey1982, scaled back nested quote

[Oldcity]

Now 7th and only .032 away from the #3 outfielder in that stat. If few guys make an out in their next AB, while Braun hits another HR, he is probably about tied for #3.

Great. I hope he keeps rolling and keeps moving up. The point was that yesterday when he was lower people were arguing he didn't deserve it.

 

[zzzmanwitz]

Frankly, I'm not anymore. Trying to have rationale discussions on this board is becoming very difficult. I spend a lot of time writing up what I hope to be a good explanation for the opinions that I hold and they continue to be shot down with one sentence, staw-man counter arguments that make little or no sense. I don't expect to be able to sway many with my arguments but I doubt most arguing so strongly against me even take the time to even read and understand what I'm trying to say. I'm wasting my time.

 

I still appreciate your explainations Russ.

[cwolf2012]

I understand that, I guess my point is some are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here. Even if you think he is not one of the top 3 Ofers, if it would be better/fairer for Braun to make the starting all-star team than anyone else who has a realistic chance of making it and you are a Brewer fan why not vote for the guy?

If you read my earlier post, I did vote for Braun. He's my favorite player in baseball, but that doesn't make me think he's better than he is. I want to see him play in the allstar game, so I voted for him 25 times. The argument here seems to boil down to what the allstar game is actually supposed to be. The best overall players or the guys people most want to see. I voted for the best player at each position except for Braun.

My ballot went:

1B: Berkman

2B: Utley

3B: C. Jones

SS: H. Ramirez

C: McCann

OF: Ludwick, Burrell, and Braun

 

And I wrote in Branyan for 5 of my votes too. But that was just for fun.

[Fatter than Joey]

Exit, stage right.

 

You mean left.

[homer]

Frankly, I'm not anymore. Trying to have rationale discussions on this board is becoming very difficult. I spend a lot of time writing up what I hope to be a good explanation for the opinions that I hold and they continue to be shot down with one sentence, staw-man counter arguments that make little or no sense. I don't expect to be able to sway many with my arguments but I doubt most arguing so strongly against me even take the time to even read and understand what I'm trying to say. I'm wasting my time.

 

I still appreciate your explainations Russ.

ditto

[True CryM]

Can I vote Ryan Brain as a write in?

[Postseason2006]

Can I vote Ryan Brain as a write in?

 

Nope. He went 0 for 5 today without any walks.

[Robideaux]

Is getting on-base mutually exclusive from hitting home runs?

 

Of course not. The argument isn't (or shouldn't be) that one is important and the other isn't. Hitting for power and getting on base both matter. Some players are really good at one aspect and not the other (Giles, Fukudome). Others like Braun have tremendous power, but make a whole bunch of outs. The key point is that some players are excelling at both. The argument is not either or but both.

 

Also, It's not like a home run doesn't count for OBP. It counts just the same as a walk or a hit. You can then determine whether the hitter is hitting all singles or lots of doubles and homers by looking at his SLG%.

[TooLiveBrew]

No, but see -- when you hit a HR, it doesn't help your OBP. Clearly this is the point the 'stats guys' have been trying to make!

[And That]

Exit, stage right.

Was that a joke about taking a walk? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

[BrewCrewForever]

I guess I to ust don't understand why people are so concerned about Braun's OBP. Yes it should and could be higher but all the other numbers are there. He deserves it as much as and probably more then the other OF with highter OBP.

[TooLiveBrew]

He deserves it as much as and probably more then the other OF with highter OBP.

 

Care to elaborate on why? (just curious on your reasoning)

[BrewCrewForever]

He deserves it as much as and probably more then the other OF with highter OBP.

 

Care to elaborate on why? (just curious on your reasoning)

Because his other stats are all there. AVG, HR, RBI, SLG, OPS, Doubles, Triples. Am I worng? Just my opinion.

[pitchleague]

I think people are expecting Albert Pujols and A-Rod numbers across the board from Braun--power numbers AND on base skills. Unfortunately, not every player does that. It's why those type of players are the exception and not the norm. Can Braun get to that level? Perhaps but it will take some discipline from him. He chases too many balls out of the strike zone and that kills him OBP-wise, but that's probably not how he's been taught and coached all these years (to take pitches). He's got a good swing and lots of power and he uses it how he sees fit.

 

Get Prince Fielder out of the lineup behind him and he might be more selective and draw more walks. And maybe not, we just don't know for sure. Speculation, however, is fun. I wish both sides of this argument could see AND accept both sides of the discussion.

[logan82]

I think people are expecting Albert Pujols and A-Rod numbers across the board from Braun--power numbers AND on base skills.

I will admit I would like to see Braun increase his OBP. In this case we are not discussing what we would like to see Braun improve on. We are comparing his current production to other players at his position and are pointing out that other players at Braun's position have a SLG better or within a few points of Braun, but also have a much, much higher OBP.

[BrewCrewForever]

Great post pitchleague. Very well said.

[TooLiveBrew]

Not true at all. We are just pointing out that other players at Braun's position have a SLG better or within a few points of Braun, but also have a much, much higher OBP.

 

Which is not equal to saying 'Braun is poopy & I h8s him!'... just some objective observation.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Not true at all. We are just pointing out that other players at Braun's position have a SLG better or within a few points of Braun, but also have a much, much higher OBP.

 

Which is not equal to saying 'Braun is poopy & I h8s him!'... just some objective observation.

How is that objective when nobody came close to saying that, or accusing others of saying something similar?

[Paul77]

Read the thread and stop wasting my time.

I wonder how this comment registers on the "Keep Brewerfan Beautiful" meter.

 

[PeaveyFury]

Everyone certainly has the right to vote how they want to. But it seems as if the choice is between voting for guys who may be deserving but have little to no chance, or voting for a guy who is having a great year so far that is probably All-Star caliber and probably has a legitimate shot at starting over the three guys in front of him that are less deserving than him. And he's a Brewer to boot. Made my choice fairly easy.