Ryan Braun, Mat Gamel, And An Inevitable OF Log Jam

[sheetskout]

There was an article on CBS Sportsline that brought up a few hypothetical questions about our OF and 3B situations. The article mentions the would-have-been scenario where if Braun would have stuck at 3B a Braun/Laporta pairing, now, would be pretty attractive. The article continues by analyzing the fact that because Gamel is improving, a Braun/Laporta situation still causes a problem.

 

Moving Lorenzo Cain to AAA sends a whole bunch of mixed signals too. Cole Gillespie is also aging at AA and I totally see a deal-to-be-made here for some pitching depth.

 

So, you have Laporta, Cain, Gillespie, Brantley all having success (Cain is totally debatable though) gunning for three ultimate spots two of which are already occupied by young full-timers in Braun and Hart. Braun is already locked up, and Milwaukee has been rumbling recently with "Sign Cory Hart" sentiments.

 

What happens if Gamel doesn't work at third? Add another to the OF list. Also realized is the fact that Cain and Brantley are relatively young for their leagues (again, Cain is debatable there too depending on where he sticks). LaPorta and Gillespie, however, are not.

 

I really can't remember a time like this in Brewers history. The Minor League System had so many offensive options that they had to be juggled a little bit to get them playing time (a la Cain), while making an effort to keep core groups together.

 

I think that if Lawrie works at Catcher you'll see this situation there too.

 

Thoughts appreciated. Thanks.

[TheCrew07]

Surplus bats are not a bad thing... they can keep the best of the bunch and flip the rest for young arms. I've always been open to trading arms for bats, and I really like the idea X posted about drafting position players high and flipping them for pitching. That way the other organizations are weeding out the injuries and guys who just can't plain get it done, and the Brewers can trade for the quality arms that are left.

 

I fully expect some of the outfield bats to be traded, there's no doubt there isn't room for all of them. If Lawrie sticks at C there's actually 3 top tier catching prospects and 2 second tier in the system. C is in such high demand that they'll flipped to fills holes else where in the system. If Gamel sticks at 3rd Hall has trade value, LaPorta could actually replace Prince down the road, allowing Hart to stay in right, and one of the younger players to play CF (Brantley, Cain, etc). I don't see how TGJ has a role with this team in 08, and certianly not next year, he's building decent value with his run at AAA. Again he's a good defensive player, but his offense is so limited power and OBP wise... His speed while good isn't exceptional, he does many things well, but nothing good enough to be a starter imo.

 

I don't see Braun and LaPorta in conflict at all, if LaPorta becomes a starter, Braun goes to RF and Hart to CF. If they call up Gamel either he's playing 3B or Prince has been traded and LaPorta is now the 1B and Gamel takes his spot in the OF. Maybe Hart gets trade and one of those guys takes his spot. I'm not concerned at all, for me personally this is the most interesting time to be a Brewer fan in my 33 years, including the WS year in 82, which I was too young to appreciate it at the time. The big club is competitive and the minor league system is as stacked as it's been in my lifetime. It may not be rated very high right now, but with the years certain players are having, and if the draft picks play well, this will be one of the top rated systems next year. I think somehow some of our guys have been flying under the rader, Salome especially, as BA never ever mentions him as a prospect.

[sheetskout]

Good insight. I didn't mean to sound like our bat surplus was a point of complaint. It's one of the nicer problems an ML system can have.

 

Honestly, the player I am rooting for the most is Salome. Should Salome work out and stick in the system for a while, Lucroy can be dealt, and sold high for arms and Lawrie can be re-assessed to find his position.

 

Times are good, but there's some things to figure out. Most of all I want all of these names to be handled carefully, something that Melvin has done a good job at in my opinion.

[logan82]

Would Gamel be a better option at 1B than LaPorta?

[Team Canada]

Moving Lorenzo Cain to AAA sends a whole bunch of mixed signals too.

 

Not really, they just don't want to bump LaPorta until Huntsville's first half is over. After the break it would be surprising if things remained as they are (well, clearly there are lots of things that may happen when second halves begin).

 

[BrewCrewForever]

I still think Gamel will stay at 3B. He has already improved his D a lot this season under the guidance of Don Money. Hopefully he continues that and can be a decent fielding 3B who will rake at the plate. LaPorta could eventually take over at 1B and but until then if you have to throw Hart in CF and figure out between Braun and LaPorta who will be in LF and who in RF. It should all be fine.

[paul253]

I think it would be great if Gamel can stick at third. I think ulitmately LaPorta will replace Fielder at first, so a combo of Gamel and LaPorta at first and third would be awesome. That frees the outfield for Braun, Hart and either Cain or Brantly in centerfield. I am not sure Gillespie will ever be a starter in Milwaukee. He could be a solid backup or good trade bait, but he'd have to be traded soon before his value dips too low ala Brad Nelson. An outfield roster of Braun, Hart, Cain, Brantly and Gillespie would be amazing, but I'm just afraid its a waste of talent. Is there any chance Brantly can be moved to, say, second base? I think Weeks will have to be replaced because he just doesnt seem to be getting any better, and his bat in the one or two hole, with his just amazing strikeout rate, would be something we really could use.

[splitterpfj]

I think Cain is in AAA to leave the AA roster intact. I wish Cain well, but as you've pointed out, the odds are stacked against a lot of the outfielders in the Brewers' system right now. Even in this draft, where the Brewers went heavy on pitching, they took three outfielders in the early rounds - the system is stacked out there.

 

The team has finally reached a point where they can comfortably deal some real talent from the minor leagues. They need some arms to plug the gaps in the top half of the system right now, I'm sure we'll see some deals over the next twelve months.

 

One team that stands out as a possible trade partner is Kansas City, their system is just the opposite, they're loaded with arms, but their best bats are in the low minors right now.

[Mass Haas]

Is there any chance Brantley can be moved to, say, second base?

Bats left, throws left.

 

Although one of the College Softball World Series teams (Texas A&M) had a left-handed second baseman this year.

[davego]

One thing that will be different for us as 'Crew fans to get use to is that we are going to see some younger players get moved and have success with other teams; and have to be OK with it. I will not be some major flaw by the brain-trust if a Brantley or whomever gets moved and does well for another team. Getting player(s) of value back will be the key...what a nice problem.

[bbrauch2000]

I was at the Jacksonville game on Friday night and saw the nightmare that is Mat Gamel's defense. If he did what he did in the major leagues, the manager would have pulled him mid-inning. The two errors he was charged with were bad enough, but there was also a chopper to third he came forward on, fielded it cleanly and couldnt get the ball out of his glove. He also had a grounder to his left that he muffed, which he was fortunate enough to recover and throw out a slower runner. In all, he had 6 balls hit his way and he cleanly fielded 1 of them, which was a pop up. He may improve, but if the Brewers are going to be in a position to compete, he is probably a guy I see as on the outside looking in.

[splitterpfj]

He may improve, but if the Brewers are going to be in a position to compete, he is probably a guy I see as on the outside looking in.

 

I'd bet against this, he might be the best bat in the system, and he's the only one of the top prospects who bats left-handed. I think he'll have a very long leash.

[sheetskout]

I think it would be great if Gamel can stick at third. I think ulitmately LaPorta will replace Fielder at first, so a combo of Gamel and LaPorta at first and third would be awesome. That frees the outfield for Braun, Hart and either Cain or Brantly in centerfield. I am not sure Gillespie will ever be a starter in Milwaukee. He could be a solid backup or good trade bait, but he'd have to be traded soon before his value dips too low ala Brad Nelson. An outfield roster of Braun, Hart, Cain, Brantly and Gillespie would be amazing, but I'm just afraid its a waste of talent. Is there any chance Brantly can be moved to, say, second base? I think Weeks will have to be replaced because he just doesnt seem to be getting any better, and his bat in the one or two hole, with his just amazing strikeout rate, would be something we really could use.

It hurts me to say it as Rickie was my favorite, but you may be right. Brantley's K/BB ratio looks STELLAR for the leadoff spot. I mean the guy strike out once every 30 AB's or something close to that!

 

[TheCrew07]

paul253 wrote:

Is there any chance Brantly can be moved to, say, second base?

Clancy's influence is finally spreading...

[JJHardy7]

I think we have to take a step back for a second and realize of the "hype" all these young guys are generating may not translate to the bigs. We've been let down a bit with some of the prospects in Milwaukee so far so I'm going to guess a few of these guys will never be MLB starters or guys worth fitting in.

 

That being said this is one of the major reasons I wanted Ryan Braun to stay at 3B. I'm not justifying his defensive liability last year, but the guy really didn't get that much time to improve his game since he was moved up so fast because of his bat. That being said I hope the Brewers take things with Gamel very slow and learn a lesson to a certain degree. I haven't read, heard, or seen anything from Gamel that says he can't play the position. I do think though that if he's moved too fast and struggles defensively Brewers fans will be all over him and the Brewers would have to move him. What if the Brewers didn't sign Cameron this off-season? My guess is Braun would be at 3B, but since fans were so outraged and and Cameron was available Braun was moved. I've said it here before, but I'll say it again -- coaches in Huntsville and Nashville believed Braun would be an above average 3B given the time -- let's give Gamel the time we didn't/couldn't give Braun.

 

I also think at this point and time we have to look at it that there is only one OF that will be in Milwaukee for several years and that's Braun. Until Hart signs a long-term deal there is no promise that he'll be here for a long time. If some of the guys in the minors prove to be as good as advertised, we can always trade Hart (not that I really want that to happen) since he will be the most expensive.

 

I don't want to be a downer or anything, but I'm trying not too put a ton of pressure on the guys in AA. They're all raking, but it's not AAA or the bigs so I will be hopeful that they'll all pan out, but realistically there's going to be a few of them that don't or aren't the as good as advertised.

[nate82]

What if the Brewers didn't sign Cameron this off-season? My guess is Braun would be at 3B, but since fans were so outraged and and Cameron was available Braun was moved.

Braun was moving out of 3B at the end of the year anyways. The sign that Braun was moving to the OF was the team not picking up Jenkins contract. If the Brewers really thought Braun could play at 3B they would have kept him there and kept Jenkins also. The Cameron signing might have happened anyways depending on how comfortable the Brewers brass was with Hall playing CF again.

 

[TheCrew07]

I don't think Jenkins contract had anyting to do with Braun at 3B... Jenkins is essentially a platoon player at this point in his career, who's being paid like a starter. To pickup that option would have been a bad business decision for the Brewers. Braun's greatest value to the organization would have been him sticking at 3B, in the same way that Gamel needs to stick at 3B, in the same way that Hall's greatest value was in CF. There were other options such as a Gross/Dillon platoon in LF, which would have been a fine stop gap for one season until LaPorta was ready. You wouldn't have gotten spectacular power numbers out of the example I mentioned, but a very decent OBP and respectable power. There's always another way... The front office decided that Defense was the problem and made the moves they did... I don't necessarily agree that the 2008 Brewers are significantly better than the 2007 Brewers as far as position players go. The pitching had the potential to be, but with Yo going down and Villy struggling as a SP, that hasn't materialized.

 

At the plate Cameron was exactly what this team had too much of already... I like him as a player, but I don't agree that he was the best option for the Brewers at this time. We've essentially traded Jenkins for Cameron offensively, and I don't see how that makes the Brewers a better team. Defensively... between Braun's misplays as he gets used to LF, and Hall's ineptitude at 3B, the error totals might be down, but the "misplays" are about a wash between LF, CF, and 3B.

[sheetskout]

At the plate Cameron was exactly what this team had too much of already... I like him as a player, but I don't agree that he was the best option for the Brewers at this time. We've essentially traded Jenkins for Cameron offensively, and I don't see how that makes the Brewers a better team. Defensively... between Braun's misplays as he gets used to LF, and Hall's ineptitude at 3B, the error totals might be down, but the "misplays" are about a wash between LF, CF, and 3B.

 

Cameron gets to balls in the gaps that only one or two outfielders get to in the Bigs. I have seen him run-down fly balls in games that go for doubles against other teams. I don't feel that Braun has been that bad in LF too. Hall's been the bad one. I'll take a Hall/Braun/Cameron/Hart setup over Braun/Jenkins/Hart/Gross/Gwynn/Hall combo anyday.

[LouisEly]

Moving Lorenzo Cain to AAA sends a whole bunch of mixed signals too.

 

As others have said, it does not send any mixed signals. Huntsville is competing for a playoff spot so they didn't want to move up any of those players, so they took the next best OF from A-ball. Plus BC is on their All-Star break so Cain would have not been playing anyway, and that's why he didn't get moved back to BC right away is because they were still on their All-Star break.

 

As for LaPorta being old for his league, is 23 really old for AA? I would find it hard to believe that 23 is above league average for prospects in AA.

[JJHardy7]

Braun was moving out of 3B at the end of the year anyways. The sign that Braun was moving to the OF was the team not picking up Jenkins contract. If the Brewers really thought Braun could play at 3B they would have kept him there and kept Jenkins also. The Cameron signing might have happened anyways depending on how comfortable the Brewers brass was with Hall playing CF again.

 

I don't think Jenkins had much to do with it. His contract was too high for a platoon player in my mind. Wouldn't it have made sense at the end of the year to tell Braun he's playing OF so he could prepare more in the off-season for the position change?

[paul253]

Cain probably should have been in AA this year, but because of all the depth and the fact they want him to play every day they kept him in Brevard County. I just hope that he isnt overmatched in AAA and his game doesnt suffer.

[homer]

Cain's already been sent back to Brevard.

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/search.php?keywords=371956/t/June-Transaction-Thread-Latest-Cain-Back-to-High-A.html

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I would think about keeping Cameron in CF one more year and picking up his option. A lot of people take for granted how great his defense has been and how smart of a player he is. I would try to buy one more year of the great defense with our same outfield as this year in 2009, and then LaPorta's bat can play at 1B after Prince goes for top notch pitching. The Wild Card is Gamel, but I'd just let him work out his defense for another year in AAA unless he can prove otherwise that it's ready and maybe have him as a Super 2 for next year, but we really don't have to rush him and the better his defense develops, the more dividends it will pay down the road.

[JoeHova]

Look at Rickie Weeks's AAA numbers once. He has a 1.107 OPS there, mostly from when he was 22 (younger than LaPorta is in AA). Now tell me why we should be so confident LaPorta will be able to do what Weeks has been unable to do, which is translate minor league numbers to MLB.

 

The obsession around here with dumping Prince is really starting to grate on me. One prospect finally pans out (Braun has panned out too, obviously), and we all want to dump him for more prospects. It makes no sense. Look at any top prospect list from 5 or 10 years ago. You'll see more busts than good players. When you get a guy who looks like he's very good, hang onto him and trade other guys.

 

I just shudder to think of a scenario where the Brewers trade Prince for 3 pitching prospects from the Yankees, one of them gets injured, one turns into Dave Bush, and the other turns into Guillermo Mota, and meanwhile Prince is hitting 45 homers a year for New York while he and A-Rod take turns winning the MVP. I think that scenario is much, much more likely than getting the next Pedro Martinez or Randy Johnson.

[bullox]

I'm pretty sure that any trade of Prince would net proven major league pitching talent in addition to minor leaguers.