Can we give credit to Yost/Melvin about Seth McClung?

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Not because I think he is always right but because anyone who gets that far in any line of work has to be, at the very least, not a complete idiot.

 

Never in my entire life have I felt quite as jaded and cynical as I do right now, at this moment.

 

The best I can hope for, my friend, is that you and I have very different definitions of "complete idiot".

[Electric Elf]

I'd like to see McClung get 102 wins with the Brewers, but to do that requires that "run support" thing where he isn't the only one getting on base while he's pitching. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Getting back to the original topic--Melvin identified this guy as having some potential. It's Castro, Maddux and Kendall who are poking him towards achieving it. I was poking through online newspaper archives last night looking up McClung-related items from 1999 to 2003, and it doesn't appear that he'd had any sort of significant coaching since high school. Tampa Bay wanted him to throw as hard as possible, and by gosh that's what they got.

[rluzinski]

McClung has been disproving it with each start. The "math" you speak of I assume is prior statistical performance but that evidence is essentially meaningless if McClung has figured something out with his control. His prior record may have no insight into his current true talent level.

 

And that's important to note. Unlike batters (for the most part), pitchers can reinvent themselves (new pitch, modified delivery, conceed velocity for accuracy, etc...) at any point. This can have a significant effect on their performance, good or bad. As dixieflatline's excellent analysis shows, McClung has definitely done an extreme makeover to himself. Whether it results in long term improvement is yet to be seen, though. He's had some modest success in his first 5 starts but 27.2 IP of results is just not much to go by. Time will tell.

 

Branyan and Kapler? Love their early success but I see nothing that justifies a large jump in expected performance. I think Branyan can be servicable in a platoon at 3B and Kapler is fine as a backup outfielder, that's about it.

[brewcrew00]

Getting back to the original topic--Melvin identified this guy as having some potential. It's Castro, Maddux and Kendall who are poking him towards achieving it.

This is where I have an issue with the other side of the "Topic of Ned." Why is it so difficult to put him in that sentence as well as the others mentioned? Obviously he has helped with McClung's development to this point.

[Thurston Fluff]

Never in my entire life have I felt quite as jaded and cynical as I do right now, at this moment.

 

The best I can hope for, my friend, is that you and I have very different definitions of "complete idiot".

 

Put it in context with the rest of the post and it should make sense.

[Fatter than Joey]

This can have a significant effect on their performance, good or bad. As dixieflatline's excellent analysis shows, McClung has definitely done an extreme makeover to himself. Whether it results in long term improvement is yet to be seen, though

 

The flipside to this, is if indeed McClung has reinvented himself, at some point NL hitting coaches are going to make adjustments -- much like they did to Turnbow. Hopefully McClung turns out to be a better pitcher.

[pete]

Branyan changed his stance and his swing.

[rluzinski]

Branyan changed his stance and his swing.

 

Major league batters are constantly talking with the media about changes they are supposedly making. It seems to me that they are usually a minor change that results in no noticeable difference in performance. For that reason, I'd just stick with Branyan's projection (updated to include his nice start this year).

 

In contrast, it appears that the changse McClung has made has been drastic. We have concrete evidence of it.

[jazzytrav]

Getting back to the original topic--Melvin identified this guy as having some potential. It's Castro, Maddux and Kendall who are poking him towards achieving it.

This is where I have an issue with the other side of the "Topic of Ned." Why is it so difficult to put him in that sentence as well as the others mentioned? Obviously he has helped with McClung's development to this point.

 

Because if the team is performing poorly, it's the players' fault and not Ned's. That's what we've been told. If Ned's job is to get credit when things go well and not get blamed when they go poorly, that's the greatest job in the world. I would probably do it for free.

[Postseason2006]

So who gets the credit for hitting a career 6th batter second for around 35 games?

[Bucky Rules]

Getting back to the original topic--Melvin identified this guy as having some potential. It's Castro, Maddux and Kendall who are poking him towards achieving it.

This is where I have an issue with the other side of the "Topic of Ned." Why is it so difficult to put him in that sentence as well as the others mentioned? Obviously he has helped with McClung's development to this point.

 

Because if the team is performing poorly, it's the players' fault and not Ned's. That's what we've been told. If Ned's job is to get credit when things go well and not get blamed when they go poorly, that's the greatest job in the world. I would probably do it for free.

I think the point was... if you're going to give Castro, Maddux, and Kendall credit for McClung, then you ought include Yost in that mix. Far too often, anything GOOD that happens is credited to everybody but Yost. Anything BAD that happens is Yost's fault. Trust me... if there were less bashing, there would be no need for the occasionally over-defensive post.

[Bucky Rules]

So who gets the credit for hitting a career 6th batter second for around 35 games?

Where a guy hit previously is irrelevant to where he belongs in this team's lineup, this year. His career numbers indicated that he was probably our best option to hit in the two hole. If he had achieved his career numbers, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you're going to argue that the reason he hasn't achieved his career norms is BECAUSE he was hitting in the two-hole, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

[jazzytrav]

Like I said before, this is just going to go around in a circle. I'm going to say that if you want to give Yost credit for the good things, you have to give him blame for the bad. You're going to say that if you want to blame Yost for the bad things, you have to give him credit for the good. The point of my post was to show that it's just going to go around in a circle until we realize that we're saying the same thing from different sides of the argument.

[Bucky Rules]

Are you suggesting that even if there wasn't so much bashing of Yost, that Yost supporters would come on here in love-fest mode, talking about how everything he does is great? I don't think that would be happening at all. He would be largely ignored -- as he probably should be.

[Electric Elf]

Getting back to the original topic--Melvin identified this guy as having some potential. It's Castro, Maddux and Kendall who are poking him towards achieving it.

This is where I have an issue with the other side of the "Topic of Ned." Why is it so difficult to put him in that sentence as well as the others mentioned? Obviously he has helped with McClung's development to this point.

Because I posted at 2 AM and I was mainly thinking about people who directly talk to him about pitching? I'm sorry about that. I really do have to give Yost credit for putting him in the rotation and not undermining his ability in the press. Lou Pinella did that all the time with McClung in Tampa Bay and I'm not surprised why McClung keeps saying that he hated it there. One of the things about Yost I like is that he doesn't insult his own players in the press.

 

[bcf5575]

i think that Yost should be fired for not realizing McClung's potential and getting him in the starting rotation sooner.

[jazzytrav]

Are you suggesting that even if there wasn't so much bashing of Yost, that Yost supporters would come on here in love-fest mode, talking about how everything he does is great? I don't think that would be happening at all. He would be largely ignored -- as he probably should be.

 

No, I'm suggesting that this particular argument is circular. No one is going to win or lose it. Since you seem intent on winning it, you keep taking my posts and deciding what you think they should mean.

[Bucky Rules]

The argument is circular. You're right about that. But, my point was that one side is aggressive, the other is defensive. The defensive argument is never necessary in the absence of the aggressor. You're also right that nobody will win -- so have a nice day. I'll try to do the same.

[logan82]

So who gets the credit for hitting a career 6th batter second for around 35 games?

Before the start of this year, Cameron had 371 GS(26%) batting in the 6th spot and 294 GS(20%) batting in the 2nd spot. I would not call him a career 6 hole hitter. He had just 82 more games started at the 6th spot than in the 2nd spot.

[pete]

I think its quite right to give Yost part of the credit for going with McClung out of spring training. As the "skipper" maybe he should get most of it.

 

 

 

Keep in mind he has one of the most coveted jobs in baseball in all the world. Its the majors. He's got supportive owners. The Brewers are packed with talent. He has an extraordinarily long leash. Melvin seems utterly devoted to him.

 

 

 

Not only should he excel, but the job should go to the best man for the job. The idea that he "earned" some right to drag out another year is Milorganite.

[rluzinski]

Am I wrong for assuming that Melvin makes 100% of the decisions when it comes to who is on the 25 man roster? Yost may get input but I don't think he's the one that actually decides.

[Ando Calrissian]

I'm pretty excited with McClung's efforts as a starting pitcher. Looking back over his career, it's as if the coaching staff has found a way to channel 1.25 gigawatts into the flux capacitor.

[Bucky Rules]

Am I wrong for assuming that Melvin makes 100% of the decisions when it comes to who is on the 25 man roster? Yost may get input but I don't think he's the one that actually decides.

 

No, I don't think you're wrong. In fact, I even heard Melvin on a local talk show talking about the possibility of giving McClung a shot at the rotation a couple of weeks before it happened. I think he not only is the reason that McClung's on the roster, he's probably the reason that he is now in the rotation. Yost does get input -- probably in the same fashion that Ron Wolf gave Mike Holmgren input -- he'll never be forced to roster a guy that he truly doesn't want. Much beyond that, I think the roster is Melvin's responsibility.

[Postseason2006]

So who gets the credit for hitting a career 6th batter second for around 35 games?

Before the start of this year, Cameron had 371 GS(26%) batting in the 6th spot and 294 GS(20%) batting in the 2nd spot. I would not call him a career 6 hole hitter. He had just 82 more games started at the 6th spot than in the 2nd spot.

 

So you are saying he should be batting 2nd then? Obviously when looking at this year stats along with the past proves otherwise. Yost fills out the lineup card, not the players.

[rluzinski]

So you are saying he should be batting 2nd then? Obviously when looking at this year stats along with the past proves otherwise.

 

Yost should have known before the season started that Cameron would perform much better in limited action batting 6th this year than 2nd? That's some wonderful hind site analysis. And I have no idea what you mean that the past proves you correct. Cameron has done just as well batting 2nd as 6th throughout his career.

 

I know, I know. BF.net and it's silly adherence to logic and facts.