Bad vibes in the clubhouse?

[naivin]

First off, i have no problem with the "greed" of players. If someone is going to pay you what you ask for, go get it. Fans may not agree, but whatever someone is willing to pay you is what you are worth, and I have no idea why people have a problem with players wanting to get paid what their worth.

 

That said, I too think that to win, pitcers do need to be the focus. Of course there are special talent - superstar caliber guys that you usually need to win as well. I would put guys like Braun and Fielder in that category. Bottom line if you want to win, you have to have both.

[silversurferr]

Then we fundamentally disagree. Although money is very important, it ain't the only important thing. Moreover, the amount of money is absurd. If we keep giving them what they ask for, only the players are going to be able to afford to go to the games. At least we agree that pitching is important. It's easier to win with great pitching and average hitting than it is to win with great hitting and average pitching, which is what we will get if we pay Prince 150 million dollars.

[kramnoj]

I cannot understand why fans continue to defend the status quo;

 

What good is railing against it going to do? There is one way to stop it. Stop watching games, stop going to games, stop buying team gear. What good would that do when this is something we enjoy? These players make lots of money because what they can do is incredibly rare, and they give us enjoyment. When we find other ways to spend our time, they will make less money.

 

Moreover, just throwing money at them ain't gonna make them win.

 

You are correct. However, not throwing money at them means you aren't going to win. You won't win a WS without stars. Look it up if you don't believe me.

 

f we lock up Fielder for the 100 mill he wants, then it is gonna be tough to sign Parra and Gallardo,

 

Not really, as long as you continue to supplement your stars with talent from the farm system.

 

Again, Boras benifits from the publicity generated from big contracts fights.

 

Publicity from fights doesn't benefit Boras. Signing the big contract does.

 

The thing that really irritates me is that Boras will cause a disturbance

 

This is only true if the front office chooses to make it public.

 

You are obviously bothered by the money, but you should be mad at the system, not the players or the agents. They are only doing their role that the system allows.

 

There is a second issue of whether Fielder is worth the money. Based on what we know so far, I personally think the Brewers would be better off trading him in one of the next two offseasons and spending their money elsewhere. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Boras.

 

Edit:

 

If we keep giving them what they ask for, only the players are going to be able to afford to go to the games.

 

Does that make sense to you? If people can't afford to go to games, the sport dies. You are obviously exaggerating, but even exaggeration has to make some sense. The players can ask for whatever they want, but it doesn't mean anything until a team gives them money. If you are mad at the players making too much money, you should be mad at the guys that signed them to the contract.

[Thurston Fluff]

There is a second issue of whether Fielder is worth the money. Based on what we know so far, I personally think the Brewers would be better off trading him in one of the next two offseasons and spending their money elsewhere. But it has absolutely nothing to do with Boras.

 

Good point. His defensive liabilities and high profile might make him a good canidate to trade if we have someone ready to play first. Prince is the kind of guy who could net a lot in return. Especially if he has a year or two left of arby. No matter how you look at it if Prince is the type of player who could command that kind of money the Brewers are better off than if he was only an average salary type of player. Lot better options either way melvin choses to go.

[moofnelson]

This thread sure took a 90 degree turn. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[THEbrewguru]

Well I'm not impressed by him. He wrote an article in ST about the NL Central where he stated that the Cubs were the only team and that "Just last week, Selig ordered the Milwaukee Brewers , Cincinnati Reds , Pirates, Houston Astros and St. Louis Cardinals to take a year off and regroup."

And this statement has been proven wrong....how?

 

The Cubs are running away with the division.

[THEbrewguru]

Why am I supposed to believe such a statement from a Houston writer who has seen the Brewers a total of 9 times this year? Tom Handricourt has seen them almost every game and hasn't even reported anything of the sort.

Richard Justice is more respected in baseball circles than Tom Haudricourt will ever be. Furthermore, if Haudricourt would report something like this, his access to the Brewers (interviews, news) suddenly ends.

[THEbrewguru]

Richard Justice = moron

 

We = > moron

 

 

I'll take our opinions anytime, anywhere over those of a blowhard like this clown.

 

You know the inner workings of a major league clubhouse? You go down there on a daily basis? You've been a respected journalist for 20 years?

[THEbrewguru]

The problem he had wasn't so much what he said about the Brewers as why he said it. He had an agenda that required the Brewers not to be a threat to the Cubs and he had to reach for something to make that seem plausable. The fact that the only thing he could find was some sort of supposed clubhouse tension seems more to be something he needed to find than something that was actually there.

You're right. He made it up. He had an agenda.

 

It's not like he could claim the Brewers had 3 #5 starters in their rotation. It's not like there are 3 windmills in the usual starting 8. It's not like half the offensive players are underachieving. It's not like he could say Prince Fielder is on pace to hit 40% home runs.

 

Nah, he had to make up something about clubhouse chemistry.

[THEbrewguru]

Retaining Boros IS an attitude problem. A slap in the fan's face. By doing so the player is saying either he wants to leave town asap or I want to financially cripple the team.

 

A slap in the fan's face? All Prince Fielder owes the fans is to give his best effort everytime he steps between the white lines.

 

Silversurfer, let me ask you this. Where do you work? How much do you make for a living? Would you accept a lesser salary starting Monday as a show of loyalty to your bosses? Would you accept less money so your company can keep costs down for the consumer?

I think not. Prince Fielder deserves to make as much money as a team is willing to pay him. He is smart to retain the best agent in the business to negotiate his contracts.

[jeffy]

silversurferr[/b]]Boras is bad news. Would it be good for the team for Boras to represent every star Brewer? Of course not. That would result in half the team leaving through free agency;

 

I'd rather see some reasonable behavior; guys signing reasonable contracts that make them filthy rich but that also enjoy playing together in a nice city with great fans. Boras ain't gonna help that happen.

Isn't this decision up to the player? If Prince Fielder wanted to do what Braun did, all he's got to do is tell his agent. If it is truly a case where the agent says "no, I won't do that", he can fire him and hire Braun's agent.

[ESPNOwen]

Why am I supposed to believe such a statement from a Houston writer who has seen the Brewers a total of 9 times this year? Tom Handricourt has seen them almost every game and hasn't even reported anything of the sort.

Richard Justice is more respected in baseball circles than Tom Haudricourt will ever be. Furthermore, if Haudricourt would report something like this, his access to the Brewers (interviews, news) suddenly ends.

 

How do you know this?

[THEbrewguru]

Why am I supposed to believe such a statement from a Houston writer who has seen the Brewers a total of 9 times this year? Tom Handricourt has seen them almost every game and hasn't even reported anything of the sort.

Richard Justice is more respected in baseball circles than Tom Haudricourt will ever be. Furthermore, if Haudricourt would report something like this, his access to the Brewers (interviews, news) suddenly ends.

How do you know this?

 

How do I know what? That Justice is more respected than Haudricourt? Or that his access would dry up?

[ESPNOwen]

Why am I supposed to believe such a statement from a Houston writer who has seen the Brewers a total of 9 times this year? Tom Handricourt has seen them almost every game and hasn't even reported anything of the sort.

Richard Justice is more respected in baseball circles than Tom Haudricourt will ever be. Furthermore, if Haudricourt would report something like this, his access to the Brewers (interviews, news) suddenly ends.

How do you know this?

How do I know what? That Justice is more respected than Haudricourt? Or that his access would dry up?

 

Sorry - that Justice is more respected thank Haudricourt...

[TooLiveBrew]

You know the inner workings of a major league clubhouse? You go down there on a daily basis? You've been a respected journalist for 20 years?

 

This site is such a better Brewers resource than Richard Justice it hardly warrants comparison. Where did I thump my chest? I will take the whispers & talk around here 1,000 times before I take something that guy wants to write. He's got an agenda, to turn out an article & 'generate interest'... aka say something absurd after the Brewers were swept that the clubhouse being bad after a sweep tells us 'they're done!'.

 

If you enjoy the 'entertainment' segment of what some reporters are asked to or feel compelled to do, that's fine by me. Just don't come calling at me like I don't have every right (& evidence, given his track record) to be 100% skeptical of what an outsider like Justice has to say about the Brewers.

 

Look at it this way -- if Trenni did some post-game interview & was in or near the Cubs' clubhouse after the Brewers had beaten them in a draining game, and she said something as silly as, 'Boy these Cubs are going nowhere -- their clubhouse is so down!', would you do any more than just let it slide as a bit of 'infotainment'... which is her job, and if Justice is as ambitious to get on TV, he probably feels it's his job too. Now if someone like Olson or TH or AW wrote about how troubling the mood in the clubhouse has been for 'X' weeks, that's a different story.

[Thurston Fluff]

You're right. He made it up. He had an agenda.

 

It's not like he could claim the Brewers had 3 #5 starters in their rotation. It's not like there are 3 windmills in the usual starting 8. It's not like half the offensive players are underachieving. It's not like he could say Prince Fielder is on pace to hit 40% home runs.

 

Nah, he had to make up something about clubhouse chemistry.

 

If you read the article it is quite obvious that the whole point of the article was that the Cubs had no team that could make a run at them. If he would have used any of the stuff you mentioned then maybe it would have meant he did some amount of research or made valid points. The fact that he had to reach for something as silly as clubhouse chemistry based off his obvious limited time in the Brewers clubhouse tells me that he didn't do much reasearch on the subject. Any of the things you mentioned could have been added to make his point stronger than what he did use. When someone has access to such tangible information and instead of useing it goes for the easy to say, impossible to contradict, "chemistry" angle what does it tell you about the amount of time/research he did on the topic?

[THEbrewguru]

This site is such a better Brewers resource than Richard Justice it hardly warrants comparison. Where did I thump my chest? I will take the whispers & talk around here 1,000 times before I take something that guy wants to write. He's got an agenda, to turn out an article & 'generate interest'... aka say something absurd after the Brewers were swept that the clubhouse being bad after a sweep tells us 'they're done!'.

 

Just don't come calling at me like I don't have every right (& evidence, given his track record) to be 100% skeptical of what an outsider like Justice has to say about the Brewers.

 

Now if someone like Olson or TH or AW wrote about how troubling the mood in the clubhouse has been for 'X' weeks, that's a different story.

 

This is too rich to just let go.

 

Better Brewer resource? Yes, as far as fans' opinions go, but tell me what breaking Brewers news has ever come out of here? Tell me any insider information that has ever been reported here?

 

What agenda does he have? As I said above, if his "agenda" was to say how the Cubs were going to run away with the division and the Brewers didn't have a chance, there are any number of things he could have cited other than clubhouse chemistry.

 

What track record? Just because an idiotic site like firejoemorgan.com has a couple articles from him? (btw, FireJoeMorgan.com is really legitimate, they want to take away a man's livelihood and they're suddenly the be-all and end-all of sports reporting. I have found numerous instances where they were way off base. It's a humorous site, but nothing you should take seriously.)

 

As I said before, if Haudricourt or Witrado would report on this, they suddenly don't get any more interviews or insider information from the Brewers. I got on Haurdricourt last year for, when Estrada was released, he finally reported what a clubhouse cancer he was, how he didn't even talk to some teammates and Maddux and him weren't on the same page. He told me he couldn't report on it earlier because he wouldn't have been welcome in the Brewers clubhouse.

 

And, btw, Drew Olsen goes into the Brewers clubhouse as you do nowadays.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm not sure what your point is. All I can tell is you

 

A) Missed entirely that the explicitly-mentioned agenda for Justice is to get attention & get on TV. I did not introduce this notion, nor is it without substance

 

B) Have some misplaced venom for FJM, a site I never mentioned, and a site that actually does a far better job of being an objective watchdog than the hot-air sports 'writers' they cover

 

C) Have never witnessed a BF.net thread report info before the MSM did (really I have no idea how you can ask so instigatingly, "Tell me what breaking Brewers news has ever come out of here? Tell me any insider information that has ever been reported here?" -- ??). To me this exposes a plain fact that you just don't come here very often, or if you do, don't really pay very close attention.

 

D) Are warping me saying that. if the clubhouse is so bad, and we heard so from a reporter that has more to do with the Brewers than Richard Justice, I'd take it seriously (I picked Olson, TH & AW -- and yes, I would trust Olson more than Justice, bc to think that Drew has no more sources in the clubhouse... or that his aren't more reliable than Justice is silly imo)

[Thurston Fluff]

What agenda does he have?

Did you read the article? The entire point of it was that the Cubs don't have to worry because of the problems with the other teams in the division.

As I said above, if his "agenda" was to say how the Cubs were going to run away with the division and the Brewers didn't have a chance, there are any number of things he could have cited other than clubhouse chemistry.

As I said above if he had used any of the things you used then maybe he would have had more credibility in that particular piece. Since he didn't and went for the much weaker point to back the central point he either doesn't believe what you said are issues for Brewers or he didn't research it well enough to know those points you made. Either way it certainly should be a sign that he didn't really put much thought or time into finding valid reasons for the Brewers not to be a threat to the Cubs.

[THEbrewguru]

I'm not sure what your point is. All I can tell is you

 

A) Missed entirely that the explicitly-mentioned agenda for Justice is to get attention & get on TV. I did not introduce this notion, nor is it without substance

 

If his main agenda was to get a TV job, he wouldn't go after the Milwaukee Brewers. It's like picking on the fat, uncoordinated kid in school.

 

As for your points on Olsen, yes, he does have sources, but if you listen to him long enough, you can see where his loyalties lie. He hardly ever criticizes the Brewers. In fact, he will go out of his way to praise a move by Yost. In fact, that's true of WAUK down the line, they will go out of their way to praise every local team, while WSSP will go out of their way to rip everything about the local teams. Oh, if we only had a legitimate sports talk station in town.

[TooLiveBrew]

If his main agenda was to get a TV job, he wouldn't go after the Milwaukee Brewers. It's like picking on the fat, uncoordinated kid in school.

You seem to have made a joke here

 

 

As for your points on Olsen, yes, he does have sources, but if you listen to him long enough, you can see where his loyalties lie.

 

Ok, thanks. I will never question anything a reporter says again, as long as it's critical of the Brewers. Because that kind of reporter doesn't have any agendas about getting on TV, since he'd rather pick on fat kids.

[THEbrewguru]

btw, I don't know why everyone is so quick to dismiss Justice's report.

 

There have been a couple threads and many comments on this board and others (WITH NO ACCESS TO THE PLAYERS) about Prince's attitude this year because of one line he said in spring training about his contract.

 

So when a reporter from another city mentions the same thing, all of a sudden everyone circles the wagon's?

 

There's a bit of a contradiction here.

 

And TooLive, if you can't keep an open mind when someone says something instead of drinking the koolaid, that's ok, that's the way you choose to look at things.

[And That]

There have been a couple threads and many comments on this board and others (WITH NO ACCESS TO THE PLAYERS) about Prince's attitude this year because of one line he said in spring training about his contract.

There's also been at least one comment on this board (WITH LITTLE/NO ACCESS TO THE SPORTSWRITING COMMUNITY) comparing the journalistic merit of taking on the Brewers to... what was it... a fat, uncoordinated school-aged child.

 

In other words, everyone has their moments of questionable hyperbole.

[ESPNOwen]

I'm not sure what your point is. All I can tell is you

 

A) Missed entirely that the explicitly-mentioned agenda for Justice is to get attention & get on TV. I did not introduce this notion, nor is it without substance

If his main agenda was to get a TV job, he wouldn't go after the Milwaukee Brewers. It's like picking on the fat, uncoordinated kid in school.

 

As for your points on Olsen, yes, he does have sources, but if you listen to him long enough, you can see where his loyalties lie. He hardly ever criticizes the Brewers. In fact, he will go out of his way to praise a move by Yost. In fact, that's true of WAUK down the line, they will go out of their way to praise every local team, while WSSP will go out of their way to rip everything about the local teams. Oh, if we only had a legitimate sports talk station in town.

Holds up shiny object while chanting "ESPN1070.com streams, ESPN1070.com streams, ESPN1070.com streams...Brewer and Packer talk from 3-6 with the 87th best talk show in Wisconsin, Heller and Murphy..."

[Thurston Fluff]

So when a reporter from another city mentions the same thing, all of a sudden everyone circles the wagon's?

 

My problem wasn't so much whether it was true or not as how he obviously didn't put too much effort into the piece. When someone in his position does that it gets some amount of legitimacy that I don't believe it deserved. As a Houston writer he couldn't have possibly seen enough of the Brewers interactions to get a legitimate read on what the clubhouse is really like. Add into it the fact that there are so many other tangible reasons to make the same point and it's pretty clear he didn't put a lot of thought into it. That's fine for fans since nobody really puts much credence into what they say. For a reporter to do that is not all that professional and does make me question him overall. After all he put his name and on it and he is paid to be better than Joe fan isn't he?