Bad vibes in the clubhouse?

[Thurston Fluff]

Brewers were in Houston - Richard Justice is in Houston. I think he was in the Brewers clubhouse.

 

I've been to Milwaukee when the brewers were in Milwaukee. Is it safe to assume I was in the clubhouse? I don't know if it's any safer to assume a writer for Houston has any more interest in what goes on in the Brewers clubhouse than I do. Other than to take a 5 minute look to find out if said clubhouse is in disarray. It's doubly funny that someone would somehow assume they have any sort of reading what so ever by visiting the vistors clubhouse on thier visti to that city. Maybe he should leave that sort of thing to people with a little more knowledge of the situation. It may have even been better reporting to have the proverbial unnamed sources who are close to the team for such information. Perhaps he could have asked one of his peers who cover the team all the time to get a better idea of what the clubhouse is like.

[TooLiveBrew]

I wonder how much of Prince's "attitude" is the imagination of the fans and the media though? I mean, Prince's comment wasn't nearly as bad as we hear from players in other sports, and yet people treat it like constantly complains about it. Is it coming up because of anything that we really know of?

 

Great post. This is every bit as much imagination as it is reality, imo.

 

 

I think you're right for the most part, but he's not the first guy to come on our show to talk about Prince's attitude.

 

Maybe Prince doesn't like the media/MSM (or Rick Justice) -- he wouldn't be the first or last.

 

 

Perhaps he could have asked one of his peers who cover the team all the time to get a better idea of what the clubhouse is like.

[insert TH/AW joke here]

[logan82]

Prince doesn't seem to be doing as many interviews this year so I see how that could be interpreted as having a bad attitude. Kind of similar, but not similar at all to, Bonds.

[crewcrazy]

I'm also wondering how much of Prince's perceived "attitude problem" is being fabricated. It could just be the fact that Prince doesn't give as many good soundbites as Ryan Braun, so instead of seeing him as just a quiet guy, they see him as a guy that doesn't like the media (which could be the case, too -- if you were Prince Fielder and you've been bashed by everyone in the national media after that slanted E:60 piece about his dad and all the flak he's caught for his vegetarianism, would you trust reporters you're not familiar with?).

 

It's almost like the media thinks "Boras + Not a Good Interview = Attitude Problem". Instead of just assuming the guy has an attitude problem because he doesn't like microphones being shoved in his face, they should ask his teammates what they think of him. Ask Rickie Weeks. Ask Corey Hart. Ask J.J. Hardy. And maybe consider that he hasn't been happy with his production so far this year, so he's not going to appreciate hearing the "Why aren't you hitting more home runs?" question for the 200th time.

 

Edit: Just another point...how much of Justice's perception would be based on the fact that Prince said he was unhappy with his contract earlier this year? Fielder caught a ton of criticism for that as well, and nearly every national media voice weighed in. Of course, when Cole Hamels and Nick Markakis made similar remarks in the days following Prince's comments, they went largely unnoticed, and you rarely hear bad things about those two.

[TooLiveBrew]

Of course, when Cole Hamels and Nick Markakis made similar remarks in the days following Prince's comments, they went largely unnoticed, and you rarely hear bad things about those two.

 

Plus, whether true or not, I'm sure Prince could see one clear difference in his exterior from those two players and say, 'Hey, what the heck?'

 

It's nice to think that race isn't a factor (for me personally it isn't), but then again I'm a white guy.

[Bucky Rules]

If Prince has an attitude problem, I don't see it in the way he plays. And it looks to me like he gets along fine with his teammates. The fact that he doesn't yap it up with every opponent that reaches first base (except Pujols for some reason), or every yahoo with a press pass that enters the locker room is of no concern to me. Frankly, if I had to answer some of the questions that Prince gets asked (or Ned for that matter) day after day, I'd be more than a bit surly. If Prince's attitude were a problem, we'd have heard some rumblings by now, I would think.

[pebadger]

The whole piece was designed around the last sentence. Everything else was just putting together a reason to beleive in the Cubs, by dismissing everyone else. The validity and/or strength of each of the assertions regarding the others is kind of irrelevant for that purpose.

[moofnelson]

I only caught a replay clip on the stream, but I heard him say that he thinks Prince has an attitude problem, something about Hall that I didn't catch, and that he thinks that Yost is a competent manager that is under a lot of stress and he thinks that is not making him loose.

 

Lots of "I think", which is about as good as what "we think".

 

How can anyone take Justice seriously after that statement?

[Postseason2006]

I think there is more competence with officiating in the NBA.

[naivin]

Brewers were in Houston - Richard Justice is in Houston. I think he was in the Brewers clubhouse.

 

Dude, what are you taklking about? Thirteen minutes earlier, you said this...

 

The reason he's on at 3:13 and not 3:40 as I had hoped, is because he'll be in the Astros clubhouse...as he often is at that time.

 

Put me in the camp that says he has not spent anywhere near enough time in the Brewers clubhouse to be able to arrive at this conclusion, and more or less just made it up to complete his Cubs column/argument. He reads the papers so he knew about the Bill Hall stuff, and Fielder earlier in the year, so hey, bad vibes...why not?

[ESPNOwen]

Brewers were in Houston - Richard Justice is in Houston. I think he was in the Brewers clubhouse.

 

I've been to Milwaukee when the brewers were in Milwaukee. Is it safe to assume I was in the clubhouse? I don't know if it's any safer to assume a writer for Houston has any more interest in what goes on in the Brewers clubhouse than I do. Other than to take a 5 minute look to find out if said clubhouse is in disarray. It's doubly funny that someone would somehow assume they have any sort of reading what so ever by visiting the vistors clubhouse on thier visti to that city. Maybe he should leave that sort of thing to people with a little more knowledge of the situation. It may have even been better reporting to have the proverbial unnamed sources who are close to the team for such information. Perhaps he could have asked one of his peers who cover the team all the time to get a better idea of what the clubhouse is like.

Richard Justice told us he was in the Brewer's clubhouse in Houston. I'm going to do something crazy here…I'm going to believe him. I know, I know, crazy talk!

 

Does anyone see the silliness in critiquing Justice for not being in the Brewers clubhouse when those making the critique have no facts to back up their assertion? So, essentially they are critiquing Justice for not doing his homework...when they haven't done their homework. Oy.

 

[kramnoj]

, essentially they are critiquing Justice for not doing his homework

 

It's easy to assume that Justice isn't doing his homework with the Brewers when he hasn't done so in the past. Last year he blamed the Brewers collapse on the young players, because that's what baseball people do, they don't trust young players. He didn't actually do any research to back up the claim, it was just the junk that baseball writers say to fill their space, their air time, etc. They do so because they aren't held accountable for being wrong. Heck, it's actually a good thing for a writer to be wrong, because then the blogosphere hordes can email their employer and show how widely read the writer is.

[istanbultaye]

I think just about anyone who has watched the Brewers the past three years would realize that Prince is not exactly the type to go skipping around the dugout singing Kum-bay-ya. He likes the grim look. That doesn't mean he's got a 'bad attitude'. I'd think he's quieter this year because he's not performing as well as he feels he should, and therefore doesn't have as much right to be as vocal in the clubhouse as he was last year. Who knows, though, as I haven't had the chance to walk around in the clubhouse for a few minutes, which would obviously tell me everything I needed to know about the teams perpetual mental state.

[Fatter than Joey]

Does anyone see the silliness in critiquing Justice for not being in the Brewers clubhouse when those making the critique have no facts to back up their assertion?

 

I don't. Since Dick Justice scrawled out this blog before the wins on June 12 and 13th, I would not hesitate to slap him around for this.

 

I have no doubt he was in the Brewers clubhouse in Houston -- probably in early May when we got swept. I suspect that if you walk into any clubhouse after getting swept, (especially after that 12 inning game) you will see some dejected players.

 

Furthermore, I suspect the Brewers, being a younger/inexperienced team, probably take their lows lower and their highs higher.

 

It would have been one thing for Dick Justice to say something to the effect of "I was in the Brewers clubhouse on May 5th and they were really despondent" -- however I don't think it is very responsible to pretend to know the overall attitude of the Brewers' clubhouse day in and day out after wins and losses, based on a one-time visit.

[rotoherb]

I don't see any reason to think that Justice is making stuff up or saying stuff that he doesn't believe to be true. I'm with Owen on this one (and I really can't believe that) in that no one here can really discount what Justice had to say because we don't know any better than he does. But at the same time, it doesn't mean that I'm just going to blindly believe what a rival beat writer had to say just because he spent a few hours in the Brewers' club house. All I get out of this is that a Houston writer was in the Brewers' club house and didn't like the vibe that he got. It actually could be something bigger or it could just be a misjudgement on his part, we really don't know, but to outright dismiss him because you don't like what he says is very close minded. What it should really do is spark further investigation from people who actually do have access to the players and more questions from us to those people about the situation.

[silversurferr]

Retaining Boros IS an attitude problem. A slap in the fan's face. By doing so the player is saying either he wants to leave town asap or I want to financially cripple the team. (Apoligists; save your nonsense about how Milwaukee could pay him Arod money and still compete. It dramatically reduces the probability.) Prince is certainly entitled to his fair share, and should negotiate for it. Brewers would give him 50 plus million for 5 years, or somewhere in the area? How about taking it and playing ball? You need that extra ten mill right now for what? Prince ain't gonna do that. There is no rational argument for the extra money that makes sense to me. And Prince's personality does not seem conducive to completely separating the contract problems from his "clubhouse attitutude." Who of you could?!? If he does not get what he wants, he will continue to be upset and, I think, become an increasingly divisive element in the clubhouse. What do I base this on? The situation with his dad, for one. Not that he dealt with that improperly; but it illustrates Prince's way of dealing with big problems. He seems like a passionate guy. I love that about him, and I bet his teammates love him for it, too. But that passion could make him more of a problem in the clubhouse if he is pissed off at the ownership. It makes sense that he could turn it into a strictly personal matter, a vendetta. Add to that he is always under the microscope as the "face of the franchise," the team leader, of a bunch of young, impressionable guys, and what do you get? A fractured clubhouse. All that said, with the partial view we get of him through the media (who want as much controversy as they can stir), HE IS THE BEST THING TO HAPPEN TO MILWAUKEE SINCE SCHLITZ BEER! Hope they can work it out.

[lukevan]

however I don't think it is very responsible to pretend to know the overall attitude of the Brewers' clubhouse day in and day out after wins and losses, based on a one-time visit.

 

Exactly FTJ. It was the "this team is going nowhere" sentiment that was not believable. How can any observer come to that conclusion just by being in the clubhouse for even a few days? The general consensus in the Wildcard thread is that the Brewers are in pretty good position to contend for the wild card if the Cubs should keep going at their fevered pace. I said earlier in the thread that no one (general public) will remember Justice's prediction by season's end but hopefully we can dig this back up after a successful playoff run and call his prediction silly because he averred his statement as fact.

[kramnoj]

Apoligists; save your nonsense about how Milwaukee could pay him Arod money and still compete. It dramatically reduces the probability.)

 

Can you back that up at all? The reason that stars command unseemly amounts of money is because they are worth it. You don't win without stars, and it's difficult to have stars without paying for them. You can try to have a bunch of cheap stars at the same time, but the current Brewers are showing that is easily designed on paper, more difficult to actually execute.

 

Signing Boras just means you want a guy who has been succesful at negotiating large contracts. It doesn't mean you are always looking to get out of town or take the most money (see Bernie Williams and Scott Boras).

[owbc]

I don't believe a word of what he says.

 

I want to hear what the JS reporters think.

[kramnoj]

Back it up? It's common sense. If you pay one player too much money, then you limit what you can do with the rest of the franchise.

 

So you're saying you can't back it up. You are correct in the sense that you literally don't pay any too much money. You pay them market value. The problem with the idea of not paying for stars is that you won't have stars on your team for a good amount of time. That's not a path to winning. You win by mixing stars with decent players at other positions. You don't win by signing the leftovers of the FA market.

 

Bernie Williams? C'mon. Bad comparison. Dude was a good ballplayer, but a least slightly overrated because of the team around him. First, I'm only comparing them in the sense that they both had Boras as an agent. How is that a bad comparison? It was reported that the Red Sox offered more money than what Bernie signed for with the Yankees. I was only pointing out that not every Boras client takes the most money. Secondly, since you bring it up, you severely underrate Bernie. The guy had a 125 OPS+ and played CF. Sure, he was a poor CF in the end, but he was a great player in his prime, during which he was a key figure of 4 WS champs.

 

Boras rapes every franchise that he deals with.

 

This is an absolutely disgusting use of that awful word. Anybody that deals with Boras chooses to do so ahead of time. There is no way in which your use of the word is appropriate.

 

Don't forget that Laporta is a genuine talent. At some point, it would make more competitive sense, "on paper" at least, to trade Prince to Boston for Buchholz and Masterson (eg., off top of head), and put Laporta at first.

 

I would be shocked if anyone here could "forget that". But that's not the point I am disputing. I am disputing the way that you are characterizing Prince and his relationship with Boras.

 

Edit: It appears that the silversuferr post that I was responding to has been deleted. Just don't want anyone to think I am crazy (or at least not for this post).

[endaround]

Boras advises LaPorta as well. That must mean LaPorta has a bad attitude too!

[silversurferr]

Boras is bad news. Would it be good for the team for Boras to represent every star Brewer? Of course not. That would result in half the team leaving through free agency; the team would have to bet on two or three key players, and fill the roster with minor leaguers and cast offs. We've already seen the second part of that equation. I'd rather see some reasonable behavior; guys signing reasonable contracts that make them filthy rich but that also enjoy playing together in a nice city with great fans. Boras ain't gonna help that happen. As I said before, Prince is a passionate guy. That is good. However, Boras (and there are other similarly bad agents) will misdirect some of that passion off the field and into the clubhouse.

[istanbultaye]

surfer, no matter who the agents are, the scenario you laid out is still relavent to the Brewers. They can't afford to have 6+ highly paid position players and 6+ highly paid starting and relief pitchers. So, building around two or three key players, filling in with second tier free agents, calling up youngsters and getting a player or two from the scrap heap is just going to be the business model, whether Boras represents 1 player or 10.

[logan82]

Boras advises LaPorta as well. That must mean LaPorta has a bad attitude too!

Yes it does. Now if he had Casey Close I think he would have a great attitude, just like Ben Sheets.

[silversurferr]

I cannot understand why fans continue to defend the status quo; the greed of the agents and the players. What's wrong with asking the players to be reasonable? Moreover, just throwing money at them ain't gonna make them win. And, you cannot build a team around just Prince and Braun. We need pitching, which is even more expensive and risky. Sad to say, but if we have to pick between the two, it ain't as difficult to find first basemen that hit .280 with 35-40 home runs (that are mediocre in the field), as it is to find a pitcher that will throw 200 innings with an ERA under 3.50. If we lock up Fielder for the 100 mill he wants, then it is gonna be tough to sign Parra and Gallardo, let alone any good free agent pitchers. But I still love the Prince, and will be happy if he signs long term for big money. But there is NO WAY Boras is gonna have a good effect on the clubhouse atmosphere. Again, Boras benifits from the publicity generated from big contracts fights. How is that good? The thing that really irritates me is that Boras will cause a disturbance, even though negotiating this contract is like taking candy from a baby; Prince will get a monster contract, with or without Boras's antics and posturing.