15 million Dollars (Cameron + Gagne)

[TooLiveBrew]

I think it's a little early to write off Cameron.

Nuh uh -- he sucks! Did you see that play in CF? He's not even a good defender anymore now!

I'm with zzzman. I can't believe some of the reactions after losses here. The difference between the forum after a win v. after a loss is striking. Like a library contrasted with Times Square.

[RU Rah Rah]

I don't think expecting league average relief performance (4ish ERA) is unrealistic, though. He still has the raw tools to compete in the majors (he's not throwing 85 MPH, or anything like that).

Yeah, I think he's basically going to be serviceable, but not much above average.

I just don't know about rolling the dice with him for one year at $10 million. I sort of understand the logic, but he was just so far removed from his prime, both in terms of time elapsed and injuries suffered.

[rluzinski]

I guess it boils down to whether or not you think you're getting Gagne prior to 2005 or the one that blew up in Boston.

 

Do you think the possibility I suggested (league average Gagne) is so ridiculous that you refuse to even acknowledge its existence?

 

I just don't know about rolling the dice with him for one year at $10 million. I sort of understand the logic, but he was just so far removed from his prime, both in terms of time elapsed and injuries suffered.

 

They must have thought there was a reasonable chance of Gagne returning to form based on scouting information. I think it's pretty clear that Milwaukee paid a premium for the 1 year deal, though, so it's probably not fair to say that the Brewers ever expected $10 mil worth of performance out of him. $7 mil, maybe? What does that usually buy you?

[trwi7]

Viagra?

 

Don't forget to tip your waitress, I'll be here at week.

http://www.emotty.com/images/emoticons/587.png

[JJHardy7]

Do you think the possibility I suggested (league average Gagne) is so ridiculous that you refuse to even acknowledge its existence?

 

We will see if he can be league average. It is possible. I just don't know if giving a guy $10 million dollars for being league average makes all that much sense.

 

They must have thought there was a reasonable chance of Gagne returning to form based on scouting information. I think it's pretty clear that Milwaukee paid a premium for the 1 year deal, though, so it's probably not fair to say that the Brewers ever expected $10 mil worth of performance out of him. $7 mil, maybe? What does that usually buy you?

 

Who else was going after Gagne? I don't recall a team, but I sure hope there was one for the price the Brewers paid. I think it's hard to determine market value if the Brewers were the only team going after Gagne.

[Thurston Fluff]

We will see if he can be league average. It is possible. I just don't know if giving a guy $10 million dollars for being league average makes all that much sense.

I don't think it's as much paying that for league average as it is hoping at this point he can be league average an earn some of that money. They paid it in the hope he was better and if he was only average it was at the very least not money completely wasted. If they would have said at the beginning of the season they hoped he would be average then I'd say it was stupid. I think they felt he was going to be better than that but now are willing to live with average for the remainder year.

[hauser42]

So if the Brewers dont sign Cameron what would the Brewers have done?

 

1. Keep Hall in CF and Braun at 3B. Poor defense at two spots wich was costly last year. Hall's bat was suppose to be better with him in the infield and we see what has happened to him with the move back in. Who would have played LF?

 

2. Put Gwynn Jr in CF, even though he has not shown the ability to hit at the majors. So this team would have Kendall and Gwynn as defensive players plus a pitcher in the lineup. Sounds like a real potent offense.

 

Melvin went out and tried to make a difference in this team, so far it has not worked out the best. However this option is still better than what the Brewers had coming into the offseason.

[rluzinski]

I think they felt he was going to be better than that but now are willing to live with average for the remainder year.

 

I'd guess that they were expecting something like:

 

League Average: 30% chance

Above Average: 50% chance

Old Gagne: 20% chance

 

If it was, it wasn't very reasonable, IMO.

[JJHardy7]

I don't think it's as much paying that for league average as it is hoping at this point he can be league average an earn some of that money. They paid it in the hope he was better and if he was only average it was at the very least not money completely wasted. If they would have said at the beginning of the season they hoped he would be average then I'd say it was stupid. I think they felt he was going to be better than that but now are willing to live with average for the remainder year.

 

I agree with what you're saying. The problem I had/have with the signing is that his track record the past few years, injuries, and age didn't really sway me as it was going to work out. I hope when he comes back he can at least be average. I remember people saying we had to pay a premium to get him in Milwaukee, but I tend to feel the Brewers were the only ones interested in giving him a closer role which to me raises some questions.

[Thurston Fluff]

I think you're probably right JJ. I'm more interested in what he can do know that we paid him. Not much use in crying over spilt HGH.

[monty57]

Physically, Gagne still seems to have "the stuff." I think he lost his confidence during his time in Boston, with the entire national media telling him he was worthless. A closer without confidence = a bad closer. The Brewers took the risk that he'd get his confidence back, and it hasn't worked out. Hopefully, he will come back as a middle inning or setup guy and remember that he has above average "stuff" and can get hitters out on a regular basis.

 

I'm glad to see Cameron in a place in the lineup that suits him. I never really saw him as a #2 hitter, and I think it may have gotten to him some. Even though the play last night upset me, Cameron is still a premiere defender. As far as his bat, he's someone who swings hard all the time. He'll strike out a lot, not get on base at a high clip, but will have a decent SLG. The Brewers looked for a left-handed hitting OBP machine during the offseason. When that player wasn't available, they ended up signing Cameron, which, as has been stated, is better than the other options available.

 

As far as the complaint that they'll continue to get playing time over lesser paid but better players, hasn't that been kind of proven untrue this year? Bill Hall was platooned, even though he's making much more than Branyan; Cameron has been sat down to make more playing time for Kaplar; McClung has been added to the rotation when supposedly better prospects were struggling; Gagne was taken out of the closers role (if only for one game). It seems to me that Yost / Melvin are trying to put the best team on the field, regardless of pay scale or ego.

 

Finally, if you are going to rail on the two "mistakes" Melvin made, why not give credit for signing Riske, Kapler and Kendall and trading away nothing to acquire Mota and Torres. All in all, I think Melvin did a pretty good job during the offseason, even if Gagne and Cameron don't live up to their contracts.

[TooLiveBrew]

Besides, even if Cameron underperforms a bit on offense, his stellar D coupled with whatever he brings with the bat is easily > or = $5M on the FA market.

[twobrewers]

Cameron was worth that much just to move Braun off of 3B.

[Hate those Rodents]

My point of my topic starter, or at least after reading this thread, has more to do with this.

 

I don't want the fact that attendance is up to mean that Doug is going to waste 15 million or so each off-season on guys that nobody else wants to prove to the casual fan that we have money and we will spend it. Nobody wanted these guys, we overpaid for each (that's why they signed here), and they are doing more harm than good imho (Cameron's defensive prowess aside).

[zzzmanwitz]

I don't remember many people saying they didn't want either of these players, especially Cameron. There were definitely mixed reviews on Gagne, however, I'm pretty sure the majority of posters on this site were very happy with the Cameron signing.

[JJHardy7]

I don't remember many people saying they didn't want either of these players, especially Cameron. There were definitely mixed reviews on Gagne, however, I'm pretty sure the majority of posters on this site were very happy with the Cameron signing.

 

I was one of the few that didn't really like either signing. Cameron's defense in CF is good, but I'm not a huge fan of his bat. I know the Brewers options may have been limited, but I was hoping for a bigger "splash" I guess that could take the team to the next level. I hope Cameron proves me wrong this year. I would be completely fine with that.

[rluzinski]

If your expectations were for a superstar CFer, Cameron is not going to "prove you wrong." That said, he has plenty of value. For one, you are seriously underestimating Camerson's defense. Even at 35, it's not just good, it's great. He has a reputation as one of the best defenders in the league and UZR (defense metric) has him as the best CFer so far this year. It doesn't take any fancy numbers to get a feel for how much value being able to track down a would-be gapper can have.

 

As for his stick, it's nothing special but it isn't bad either. His ZiPS projection (even after being updated with his bad current numbers) stands at .246/.334/.443./.776. For a guy who plays great defense, that plenty good. Of course, if you think a .776 OPS with lot's of strikeouts is significantly worse than one without alot of Ks, I could see how you might be underestimating his offensive value.

[joepepsi]

Cameron is 4 hits from career average of .250. He averages one walk for every 9 plate appearances. At that rate he should have 17 walks so far this year. He has 15. His .445 sluging pct is an exact match for his career slugging pct.

 

So the difference between Mike Cameron Bust and Mike Cameron $7 Million Player is 4 singles and two walks.

[rluzinski]

So the difference between Mike Cameron Bust and Mike Cameron $7 Million Player is 4 singles and two walks.

 

No, because then his SLG would be too high. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[joepepsi]

So the difference between Mike Cameron Bust and Mike Cameron $7 Million Player is 4 singles and two walks.

 

No, because then his SLG would be too high. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

Damn, you're right! Hopefully he'll stop hitting home runs.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

So the difference between Mike Cameron Bust and Mike Cameron $7 Million Player is 4 singles and two walks.

 

Thank you. It's getting a bit silly to still hear complaints on Cameron -- his baseline salary this season is $5M. That would be only $750k more than Jason Kendall's. Some fans are not keeping in mind what market value is anymore.

 

Btw, Cam is a mini-3T0, so the strikeouts aren't him getting away from his game. They're just more frustrating to some fans than groundouts. Cam had a nice 3T0 game last night, and I'd expect many more before the season's over.

[FVBrewerFan]

If your expectations were for a superstar CFer, Cameron is not going to "prove you wrong." That said, he has plenty of value. For one, you are seriously underestimating Camerson's defense. Even at 35, it's not just good, it's great. He has a reputation as one of the best defenders in the league and UZR (defense metric) has him as the best CFer so far this year. It doesn't take any fancy numbers to get a feel for how much value being able to track down a would-be gapper can have.

 

As for his stick, it's nothing special but it isn't bad either. His ZiPS projection (even after being updated with his bad current numbers) stands at .246/.334/.443./.776. For a guy who plays great defense, that plenty good. Of course, if you think a .776 OPS with lot's of strikeouts is significantly worse than one without alot of Ks, I could see how you might be underestimating his offensive value.

I agree, and would only add it's not his fault Ned put him in the #2 slot. His numbers look better when he's down at #7 in the line-up where he should be. But to be fair to Ned, they already have Hardy and Kendall that belong at the bottom of the line-up.

[Invader3K]

The Gagne signing could be the thing that sinks Melvin as GM. $10 million spent with very little return. Not his fault, but he was the one that took the risk, and so far it has completely backfired on him.

[TooLiveBrew]

It should mean his job? Can you expand on that?

[JonnyLungs]

I don't see a failed one year deal as costing anybody a job. It's those darn 5 and 6 year deals that tend to sink GM's.