15 million Dollars (Cameron + Gagne)

[Hate those Rodents]

Granted it was one year at 15 million, but man are Gagne and Cameron going to prove a big waste. The worst part is that our manager will continue to stick with them. Oh, how I wish we would have just had that 15 million back and not spent it than waste it on two guys that are going to continue to get chances over guys that would outperform them. With those two off the roster, I bet this team wins 10 more games this year at least then we would not give these two big contracts out and thus big time roles that they will continue to grossly underperform in.

 

EDIT: Modified subject line. Please use more descriptive titles, avoiding the use of "teasers" - BtA

[kramnoj]

I think the closer's role is now Torre's to lose. The Brewers don't have any investment in Gagne beyond this season, their sole motivation regarding the closing role should be whatever is best for this team for this year. If that means Gagne is a setup man, or just a random guy out of the bullpen, that is fine.

 

As for Cameron, his defense has been outstanding so far this year. His value hasn't been awful when you consider that.

[Glennron]

With those two off the roster, I bet this team wins 10 more games this year at least then we would not give these two big contracts out and thus big time roles that they will continue to grossly underperform in.

Ten games? How can you think they'd win 10 more games. It's Gabe Kapler who would be replacing Mike Cameron, not Willie Mays.

[dadofandrew]

The Brewers have lost 2 games in which they have led going into the 9th, and Mota pitched the 9th in one of them.

 

Simply put, the math above is incorrect, and nothing more needs to be said.

[kramnoj]

The Brewers have lost 2 games in which they have led going into the 9th, and Mota pitched the 9th in one of them.

 

Simply put, the math above is incorrect, and nothing more needs to be said.

 

You mean since Gagne has gone on the DL, right?

[jjfanec]

No, it has only been 2 games all year I am pretty sure. The Brewers won most almost all of the games Gagne blew.

[kramnoj]

No, it has only been 2 games all year I am pretty sure. The Brewers won most almost all of the games Gagne blew.

 

Ah, I had forgotten about that and I was trying to think of what the other loss was. Thanks for the reminder.

[MickeyDavis]

I wonder if we'll pick up Cameron's $10 million option after the season. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[xisxisxis]

The Brewers relievers are 12-10.

 

The losses:

 

Mota 4 (1 x 8th, 2 x 9th, 1 x 10th)

Gagne 2 (1 x 9th, 1 x 10th)

Riske (1 x 8th)

McClung (1 x 10th)

Stetter (1 x 12th)

Torres (1 x 7th)

 

In 5 of the losses the brewers were leading, the other 5 the score was tied.

[GAME05]

i still think the risk was worth the gamble. and there's going to be guys every single season who just aren't worth the money. it doesn't have to be just Cameron and Gagne that are singled out on this team, either.

[jazzytrav]

I think it's a little early to write off Cameron. Even gold glovers botch a play every once in awhile, and while his hitting has been somewhat disappointing, he wasn't going to be that great of a hitter. He could have two good weeks of hitting and be back to his career averages.

 

He's also out of place batting 2nd, in my opinion, but that's another story.

[zzzmanwitz]

How did I know I would sign on here and see a thread like this. Cameron has been the best CF in the majors this year until today. Give the guy a break.

 

As for Gagne, who knows. I think it was worth the risk and I'm still not convinced he will be this bad the rest of the year.

[Nottso]

If Cameron hadn't been signed, we might very well be watching Braun at third. Anyone care to see that?

[JoeHova]

According to UZR (an advanced defensive stat), Cameron has been excellent in CF this year. I'm still not very confident in the reliability of any given defensive stat, but he has that in his favor, at least.

 

Also, what is with Schroeder and his continual idiotic diatribes about what a 2nd spot hitter should be? Who cares what the guy's specific strengths and weaknesses are as long as he's a good player and/or gets on base at a good clip? I'm very unimpressed with the idea of "productive outs" and things of that nature, which have been shown to have no correlation with winning.

[brettac1]

I agree that it's too soon to write off Cameron. He's a pretty good hitter, but he's one of those guys who looks really terrible when he slumps because it magnifies his K's.

 

Gagne is a sunk cost. If he comes back and turns into a good 7th or 8th inning guy, though, I could care less that they paid him $10 million. That's over and done with now.

[rluzinski]

This is exactly the kind of analysis you get if you ignore everything except the results of the current year. It's pretty silly to write off Cameron after 135 AB. And despite that embarrassing play yesterday, Cam's defense has been everything we could have hoped for. To expect Kapler to outperform Cameron over the balance of the year is pretty hard to justify... well, unless you only look at the results of this year.

 

Gagne was never worth $10 to begin with but Melvin and Mark A. were gambling that he would regain his old form, apparently. I don't think he'll ever be anything close to what he was in the past but you'd expect him to at least come back and earn some of that $10 mil. When you look at the backend of the bullpen, the bar isn't exactly set high.

[JohnBriggs12]

It's my understanding that they were looking at Gagne and Troy Percival. The backed off Percival because he wanted a 2 year deal which he eventually got from Tampa Bay for less guaranteed ($8 million) than they signed Gagne for one year.

 

Percival was a risk too because of age and history, but he was very effective in 2007.

[Dollarbill13]

Ryan Braun had a .760 OPS after 135 at bats. Now after 259 AB's that OPS is at .904. If you write players off on their cold streaks, you'll miss out on their hot streaks. Cameron at .699 isn't even that far off his career mark of .784. That is nothing that a 4 or 5 game hot streak couldn't even out.

[JJHardy7]

I wasn't too thrilled with either signing based on injury history, age, and PED implications with the players. Cameron isn't far off from what I expected out of him. His defense is good, but his bat is somewhat streaky.

 

Gagne is pitching like he was in Boston so it's not a big shock. I do wish the Brewers went different routes, but there's not much that can be done about it at this point. At least they are only one year signings.

[rluzinski]

Gagne is pitching like he was in Boston so it's not a big shock.

 

If it's not a shock to you, what do you think is the explanation of the performance difference between Texas and Boston last year?

[sgtcluels]

Gagne is pitching like he was in Boston so it's not a big shock.

 

If it's not a shock to you, what do you think is the explanation of the performance difference between Texas and Boston last year?

Viagra?

Don't forget to tip your waitress, I'll be here at week.

[Thurston Fluff]

The Brewers have lost 2 games in which they have led going into the 9th, and Mota pitched the 9th in one of them.

 

Simply put, the math above is incorrect, and nothing more needs to be said

 

I don't know how the math would take into account the extra workload blown saves cost the bullpen though. The Brewers ahve more extra inning games than any team in the league in large part because Gagne couldn't hold the lead he had in the 9th. The Brewers may have won a majority of those games but at what cost to the pen long term. I don't know if ten games is accurate but I also beleive the cumulative innings means more than two games will be lost due to an ineffective closer.

 

Regardless of the outcome I still think it was worth the risk becuase niether of those contracts are going to haunt us after this season. I don't think the contracts will prevent the Brewers from trading for a player they want to make a run this year. Ultimatley I think it amounts to 15 million of Mark A's money wasted more than 15 million the Brewers could have spent making the team better this year. That is assuming Cameron's moeny is considered a complete waste which I don't. Gagne well...

[JJHardy7]

If it's not a shock to you, what do you think is the explanation of the performance difference between Texas and Boston last year?

 

It could be all sorts of different things. I'm guessing moving from the NL to the AL "bought" Gagne some time since hitters were as familiar with him. Once they were more familiar with him (i.e. more video tape of him to scout after his injuries) they knew what he was all about.

 

I don't recall any other teams or rumors, but were the Brewers the only team going after Gagne in the off-season?

[rluzinski]

It could be all sorts of different things. I'm guessing moving from the NL to the AL "bought" Gagne some time since hitters were as familiar with him. Once they were more familiar with him (i.e. more video tape of him to scout after his injuries) they knew what he was all about.

 

And being "figured out" adds 4+ runs to a pitcher's ERA? I don't even think the "changing leagues" factor is even real to begin with. If it easy, it's probably much more subtle than you are suggesting.

 

Gagne pitched 18.2 innings with Boston, so it's hard to take it too seriously. Heck, his Texas stint was only 33 innings. Add that to him basically being out of the league for the previous 2 years and it's impossible to use his recent performance to come up with any firm expectations. I don't think expecting league average relief performance (4ish ERA) is unrealistic, though. He still has the raw tools to compete in the majors (he's not throwing 85 MPH, or anything like that).

[JJHardy7]

And being "figured out" adds 4+ runs to a pitcher's ERA? I don't even think the "changing leagues" factor is even real to begin with. If it easy, it's probably much more subtle than you are suggesting.

 

Gagne pitched 18.2 innings with Boston, so it's hard to take it too seriously. Heck, his Texas stint was only 33 innings. Add that to him basically being out of the league for the previous 2 years and it's impossible to use his recent performance to come up with any firm expectations. I don't think expecting league average relief performance (4ish ERA) is unrealistic, though. He still has the raw tools to compete in the majors (he's not throwing 85 MPH, or anything like that).

 

I think it is a legit possible reason because he was out for pretty much 2 seasons and then switched leagues. I also think the injuries could be a significant factor and scared away potential suitors. I guess it boils down to whether or not you think you're getting Gagne prior to 2005 or the one that blew up in Boston. I figured it be more towards the one that blew up in Boston. I also don't think his lack of PEDs is helping his current situation.