AFI's Annual Film List - 2008

[RobertR]

I take these lists no more seriously than "here's some good rental suggestions / opportunity for discussion". And, here's some terrific clips and some superficial commentary.

 

AFI is trying something different this year. Top 10 films from 10 different genres; Animation (which I don't even count as a genre), Romantic Comedy, Western, Sports, Mystery, Fantasy, Sci Fi, Gangster, Courtroom Drama, and Epic. So, lots of obvious films, but at least some variety.

 

I expect Western to be the most obvious genre. The Searchers, Stagecoach, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Wild Bunch, Unforgiven, and Dances With Wolves are basically guaranteed to be in the list. The Searchers is a lock for #1. You can probably toss in Red River and Winchester '73 as well. It wouldn't surprise me if another Ford, probably Fort Apache, and The Outlaw Josie Wales wrap up the list.

 

Science Fiction will include 2001: A Space Odyssey, Star Wars, Blade Runner, and The Day the Earth Stood Still. It wouldn't surprise me if The Empire Strikes Back and The Matrix make appearances as well. Don't know about the final 4, although Forbidden Planet and The Thing From Another World would be my choices.

 

Lord of the Rings is going to dominate the fantasy category. Probably followed by King Kong and The Wizard of Oz. Don't know beyond that.

 

Romantic Comedy is going to include Annie Hall, It Happened One Night, and The Philadelphia Story. Probably Adam's Rib, Bringing Up Baby, and a Doris Day/Rock Hudson movie like Pillow Talk as well. I'd hope for a Lubitsch film like Ninotchka or The Shop Around the Corner but I'm bracing to gag at the choices of Pretty Woman and Sleepless in Seattle.

 

Gangster will include The Godfather, The Godfather, Part II, Goodfellas, Mean Streets, something from Cagney (White Heat?), and the original Scarface. Don't know beyond that since there's certainly a lot of choices.

 

Courtroom Drama will include To Kill a Mockingbird, The Verdict, and Witness for the Prosecution. Probably Philadelphia and Anatomy of a Murder as well.

 

I have some more thoughts but I'll save them for later.

 

Robert

[hammytime]

My husband and I usually watch the AFI top whatevers. We keep track of the number of movies on the list that we've actually seen. Sometimes we've seen many, sometimes hardly any. We've also used the lists as a source for ideas for movies to see.

[brewizard]

The Searchers, Stagecoach, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Wild Bunch, Unforgiven, and Dances With Wolves

 

You forgot High Noon and Shane! Red River has a shot because it is Howard Hawks, and because Bogdanovich always talks up that movie. But I'd say that Shane has a much stronger chance than Winchester 73. Stagecoach and The Searchers are both obvious. But what about The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? If Josey Wales or Fort Apache make the list, then something has gone wrong at AFI.

 

And the thing that ticks me off is that there is never a category for the neo-western. What is that? I'm talking about movies like Dirty Harry, Midnight Cowboy, Hud, Giant, and Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia. They are all Westerns, just set in a more modern era - hence the NEO-Western. But none of them are traditional westerns and they won't be considered... (Giant, though, has a shot at the Epic category.)

 

Oh, and we can pretty much guarantee that Harry and Sally will be in the romantic comedy. And Bull Durham in the sports genre.

[RobertR]

The Searchers, Stagecoach, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Wild Bunch, Unforgiven, and Dances With Wolves

 

You forgot High Noon and Shane! Red River has a shot because it is Howard Hawks, and because Bogdanovich always talks up that movie. But I'd say that Shane has a much stronger chance than Winchester 73. Stagecoach and The Searchers are both obvious. But what about The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? If Josey Wales or Fort Apache make the list, then something has gone wrong at AFI.

 

And the thing that ticks me off is that there is never a category for the neo-western. What is that? I'm talking about movies like Dirty Harry, Midnight Cowboy, Hud, Giant, and Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia. They are all Westerns, just set in a more modern era - hence the NEO-Western. But none of them are traditional westerns and they won't be considered... (Giant, though, has a shot at the Epic category.)

 

Oh, and we can pretty much guarantee that Harry and Sally will be in the romantic comedy. And Bull Durham in the sports genre.

Yeah, I forgot Shane and High Noon. I do think one Jimmy Stewart western is likely to make the list, although your guess is as good as mine for which one. Really, they ought to have a top 20 list for Westerns.

 

I do agree with the concept of a Neo-Western. No Country For Old Men would qualify as well, I'd think.

 

I also think that Giant probably will fit in the Epic category. I'm thinking Lawrence of Arabia, Ben Hur, and Titanic are locks for that one.

I'm not too sure about When Harry Met Sally or Bull Durham though. A lot of people see When Harry Met Sally as somewhat of a riff on Annie Hall. I'm wondering if it's not highbrow enough for people that would vote for something like Manhattan or populist enough for the other end of the spectrum. Does Some Like It Hot qualify as a rom com? Or The Apartment?

 

For Bull Durham, I see a lot of competition. I'll be surprised if anything other than Rocky or Raging Bull tops the list. I think Sea Biscuit, Hoosiers, and Field of Dreams are all likely. The Pride of the Yankees, The Bad News Bears, and The Natural are also likely to have constituencies, although I really hope The Natural gets left out. Is it ok to root for Slap Shot on a baseball board?

 

Robert

[brewizard]

No Country for Old Men! Of course! I totally forgot about that one. Awesome. Can you think of any other neo-westerns? (The Wild Bunch is almost one - but it still fits in the strictly western genre.)

 

I'd say The Apartment works as a RomCom. It fits the genre better than Some Like It Hot.

 

I agree about Harry and Sally and Bull Durham. But I think AFI likes to strike that balance between populist and artistic. I think Raging Bull, Rocky, and Field of Dreams all fit the bill. But is Sea Biscuit really one of the best sports movies ever? I hope not.

 

Epic - Lawrence, Titanic, Ben Hur, Spartacus, (Does Gandhi count? Does it have to be made by an American?)

[brewcrewman17]

Maybe I'm pretty far off, but A Few Good Men would seem to me to be a good pick for top 10 in the courtroom drama category, and I would think 12 Angry Men as well.

[RobertR]

No Country for Old Men! Of course! I totally forgot about that one. Awesome. Can you think of any other neo-westerns? (The Wild Bunch is almost one - but it still fits in the strictly western genre.)

 

...

 

Epic - Lawrence, Titanic, Ben Hur, Spartacus, (Does Gandhi count? Does it have to be made by an American?)

Movies that I forgot that are likely in the running

 

Western - The Magnificent Seven, McCabe and Mrs. Miller

Gangster - Miller's Crossing

Epic - Gone With the Wind, Dr. Zhivago

 

I'm blanking on many more Neo-Westerns although they have to be out there. Probably starring Robert Redford. Lone Star has some of the Western setting working for it, but I'd argue that it's something of an anti-western. Raising Arizona has some elements, but it's more a screwball comedy, IMO. Brokeback Mountain obviously has elements, although I don't count it.

 

I suspect that Gandhi and The Last Emperor probably have enough American funding behind them to count. Whether they should is another question. The AFI site is showing Braveheart, but I think that's a red herring. In some ways, I regard Nashville as an epic, although I'm sure the AFI won't see it that way. I'd probably count Apocalypse Now though.

 

Robert

[RobertR]

Maybe I'm pretty far off, but A Few Good Men would seem to me to be a good pick for top 10 in the courtroom drama category, and I would think 12 Angry Men as well.

But, 12 Angry Men doesn't actually take place in a courtroom but in a jury room!?!

 

Naw, just kidding, good calls on those two. I was blanking on Inherit the Wind earlier and that's a likely contender. As is Judgement at Nuremberg.

Robert

[TooLiveBrew]

Can you think of any other neo-westerns?

 

Does Unforgiven count? Or does it not fit the "neo" criteria -- it's a tad more 'traditional'.

 

As an aside, where would Road to Perdition fall in the gangster genre? I've always felt that it gets overlooked, but I can admit that it's probably not quite 'top-10' caliber.

[PeaveyFury]

Road to Perdition was the first to come to mind in that category for me as well. The Untouchables as well.

[RobertR]

I'd think a Neo-Western has to be at least mid-20th century to count. I haven't seen Bad Day at Black Rock, but that's possibly an example.

 

I'm not sure where Road to Perdition would fall. Probably not Top 10, although I'd include it in Top 10 Comic Book adaptations, but in the 15 to 25 range would be my guess. My sense is that if we're considering cultural impact and influence as criteria, it falls short of the classic 30s gangster films of Cagney along with Edward G. Robinson and Bogart, as well as Coppolla's and Scorsese's better known works.

 

Thinking about Rom Com some more, anyone else think City Lights should count? Or Seven Chances? I do.

 

Robert

[JoeHova]

They should do a top 10 Kurosawa films category. That would be a tougher competition than some of these other categories. Of course, AFI may only do American films, but if so that's another reason to take these lists less than seriously.

 

Also, how is animation a separate genre? That's just stupid. Can anybody argue that Grave of the Fireflies (for example) is not on par with pretty much any live-action war movie? Why would animated films need to be bastardized by having their own category, which implies that they can't compete in the other genres on their own merits?

[TooLiveBrew]

I'd think a Neo-Western has to be at least mid-20th century to count.

 

Whoops -- I just now noticed that your OP had Unforgiven... sorry. How about the Sergio Leone trilogy -- The Good, the Bad, & the Ugly-->A Fistful of Dollars-->For a Few Dollars More? Not saying all three should be in there, but I think they should be mentioned.

[JoeHova]

If we're including Leone films, Once Upon A Time In America has to be there for Gangster films. I personally feel that Once Upon A Time in The West is his best western, though it isn't as cool or iconic as the man with no name trilogy.

 

Sci-Fi: Alien has to be there, imo, or Aliens. One of them definitely.

 

How can courtroom drama be a category, but not documentary? There are a heck of a lot more good documentaries than there are courtroom dramas unless you're gonna count any movie with a courtroom scene as a "courtroom drama". If you can count foreign films, "M" would have to be one of the ten best courtroom dramas, even though it's a kangaroo court of gangsters in the film's denouement.

 

Rom-Com: What about Trouble In Paradise? That has to be one of the ten best, doesn't it?

 

 

The thing i don't like about the "gangster" genre is that it's too open-ended. Can any movie with criminals be a "gangster" movie? Or does it have to be organized crime like the mafia or whatever? If it doesn't, Menace II Society is a contender, maybe Fargo or Blood Simple or Heat. Rififi or Run Lola Run or High & Low if foreign films count.

[brewizard]

I'd say Brokeback counts as a neo-western. Possibly The Last Picture Show too.

 

But RobertR, you get mega points for mentioning Nashville! Mega-points. I've often said that Nashville is the best movie ever made - one of my all-time favorites. Of course, most people would disagree with me. (I admit that the first two times I tried to watch it, I fell asleep or didn't get it at all. It wasn't until I saw it on the big screen, and read a little about HOW it was made that I understood exactly what Altman had achieved.) Anyway, I've often said that you could remake Raiders of the Lost Ark a hundred times before you could remake Nashville. Some kids with a video camera proved me right:

 

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2004/03/raiders200403

 

But it still won't crack the Epic genre.

 

And also, Gone With the Wind is a major DUH!

[RobertR]

I think they're saving Documentary, along with Silent, War, Noir, Horror, Screwball Comedy, "Woman Pictures", Issue Pictures, Road Movies, and Musical for another year. And while I fully agree that the AFI being solely American-centric, with an "idiosyncratic" take on what is American at times, makes the lists less than definitive, I think they still have value as entertainment and discussion fodder.

 

If nothing else, I think we've been probing around to see what the ends of the genre are uptopic.

 

I'll be much amused if Caddyshack makes the sports movie list. Does Breaking Away count as a sports movie?

 

How much did Disney pay AFI for the Animation "genre"? I think we can essentially count Snow White and Toy Story as locks. Probably Fantasia, Pinocchio, Beauty and the Beast, and Shreck as well. Nightmare Before Christmas would be an interesting stop motion choice. I'd like to hope that something more obscure like The Iron Giant would make the list, but I'm not hopeful. (And, yeah, Grave of the Fireflies would belong if eligible.)

 

For Mystery, I'd think that Chinatown, The Maltese Falcon, and The Big Sleep are locks. Probably The Thin Man as well. The AFI has The Usual Suspects up at their website as an example (along with Basil Rathbone as Holmes), so it probably has a shot. I don't know if they really count as Mystery, but Rear Window, Vertigo, and North By Northwest have mystery elements to them and I'd prefer them to Murder on the Orient Express, for example.

 

Robert

[JoeHova]

The 3rd Man for mystery, although whether that is American is debatable. Also, I didn't like it that much (I think I saw a really bad print), but it seems to have a good reputation.

 

Breaking Away has to count as a sports film. At least my dad, who is a cycling fanatic, always counts it as his favorite sports movie. I think that should be there for sure, along with Raging Bull, Rocky, Bull Durham, Chariots of Fire (or was that wholly British?) and Hoosiers. Hoop Dreams, obviously, unless documentaries will be separate at a later year like you conjecture. I like When We Were Kings a lot too, if documentaries within a genre are eligible. Million Dollar Baby, possibly? I wasn't a huge fan, but it did win the Oscar. I've heard Pride of the Yankees is good but I've never seen that. The Hustler would have to be top 10 if pool is a sport. There have to be some good car racing movies, don't there? But I'm drawing a blank.

 

The really interesting thing would be if they counted Gladiator movies or Kung-Fu movies as sports films. Gladiating was a sport at the time, and martial arts (in the form of judo) are in the olympics. If they count those, I think we can count on Karate Kid being there, though I haven't seen that in over 20 years and I don't remember liking it, so I don't think it would be on my personal list.

[Fatter than Joey]

Someone beat me to 12 Angry Men.

 

How about Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Princess Bride or Pan's Labyrinth for fantasy?

 

Blazing Saddles for Western?

[RobertR]

The Third Man is an interesting choice that I can't believe I overlooked. Somewhat like the Hitchcock movies I mentioned above, I think "noirish Cold War thriller" is a better description, but there's definitely a mystery element there.

 

Oh, just because we don't need the AFI to tell us stuff, list of Top 10 Akira Kurosawa films.

 

1. The Seven Samurai

2. Rashomon

3. Ran

4. High and Low

5. Ikiru

6. Throne of Blood

7. Yojimbo

8. The Hidden Fortress

9. Stray Dog

10. Dreams

 

HM. Sanjuro

 

Note: I still have to get around to watching Drunken Angel, Red Beard, and Kagemusha one of these days.

 

Robert

[JoeHova]

You may have seen it, but Dersu Uzala is worth seeking out as well. Odd that it won an Oscar, yet it seems to be the most obscure of his post-WWII era films. I guess that can happen when the Soviets had it shot in 70mm, then lost the original prints.

 

My top 10 Kurosawa films:

 

1. Ikiru

2. Rashomon

3. Seven Samurai

4. Ran

5. Yojimbo

6. Stray Dog

7. Throne of Blood

8. Dersu Uzala

9. High And Low

10. The Bad Sleep Well

 

Ranking the top 10 is hard. Seven Samurai being 3rd on my list is no insult, I'd probably rank it 4th overall among all directors. Perhaps I'm too much of a stereotypical Kurosawa-fanboy. I'm partial to The Bad Sleep Well because I really like the title, which may have colored my impression. Red Beard, Drunken Angel, Kagemusha, Sanjuro, The Hidden Fortress, I Live In Fear, The Lower Depths all can make a case for being on the list too.

 

Much to my shame, I haven't seen Kurosawa's first film (Sanshiro Sugata, or its sequel, for that matter) or his last two (Rhapsody In August, Madadayo). I've heard all of these films are worth watching, but I haven't seen them playing or for sale anywhere. I'm sure I could find them online, I guess I should seek them out.

[RobertR]

Yeah I've seen Dersu Uzala (even in less than pristine form the cinematography is beautiful) as well as Madadayo and Sanshiro Sugata. Good movies all. In addition to Kagemusha, Red Beard, and Drunken Angel, I do need to see Rhapsody in August, Scandal, I Live in Fear, The Idiot, The Lower Depths, The Bad Sleep Well, and Those Who Tread on Tiger's Tail. Just haven't found the time yet.

 

Robert

[valpocrewsader]

I'd like to see Cinderella Man sneak into the Sports top ten. One of the top 3 or so sports movies I've ever seen. Million Dollar Baby will probably make it instead. I suppose Tombstone has no shot in the Western category, but I'm not sure performances get much better than Val Kilmer's in that film. Shouldn't Sci-Fi and Fantasy be one category? What a waste. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif Maybe Big Fish could make the top ten in fantasy. With a loose-enough definition of Epic, could Schindler's List fit in there? Braveheart?

[EdgarDiazRocks]

Oh, just because we don't need the AFI to tell us stuff, list of Top 10 Akira Kurosawa films

Oh! I can do this one!

 

1. Rashomon

 

- Because no other film of his has defined a concept as well. It started an idea in mainstream philosophy that film makers trying to recapture it afterwords have completely failed at. Its narrative is so dense and thick that to think of it as simple storytelling is limiting. It's a freakin' poem. They're ALL the truth.

 

2. Ikiru

 

- showcases right off the top how Kurosawa uses all aspects of the medium during the soundless street crossing sequence. the director again eschews standard linear storytelling by splitting the film in half. dropping a not so random one-off flashback in the first half then using Rashomon like storytelling in the puzzle like second half. Actually advocates that the viewers become better people with it's bleak end. Slightly better than Life as a House.

 

3. Throne of Blood

 

- I like this one so much because he really nails the adaptaion of the original story so well. Mfune's MacBeth actually seems like he's making choices and being driven mad for legitimate reasons rather than being a automoton going through the paces simply because "it is all foretold!" The attack of the trees sequence is transendent.

 

4. Seven Samurai

 

- its only flaw is that it's a bit long and be tough to get through for a novice. There is a hell of a lot going on here and you need to watch it several times to understand, even from a filmaking standpoint why it's so freakin' brilliant. It has some of the best shots and sequences ever captured on film and the storytelling to back it up. Absolutely flawless.

 

5. High and Low

 

- Again the narrative is the key with the split storytelling. The first half is simple good storytelling and the second half is beyond beautiful filmaking with some of the sparsest dialog around. Most movies, to follow what's going on, you don't have to even watch the screen. In the bar and drug den sequences you have to watch foreground and background in different quadrents to get all the information. (plus know a little some thing about classic art).

 

6. Ran

 

- The attack on the first castle is possibly the greatest film sequence ever made, right down to the sweeping classical score ripped open by the single gunshot. It's noir Shakespear. It also has the best female charcter in a Kurosawa film.

 

7. Yojimbo

- The anti-Kurosawa piece in a way. He shows his humanism in a different way here by turning the feeling on its end with a different kind of anti-hero who's only good deed is brutally punished. Mfune's character isn't any sort of avenging spiritual force like High Plains Drifter, he's always portrayed as a human who understands that his choices have consequences. And his own survival is the most important thing to him.

 

8. Kagemusha

- The Ran "Run Through" actually stands on it's own for it's stunning visuals and scale, even if the script is one of the less "Kurosawian?" Man does this guy know how to kill horses. A LOT of animals were harmed in the filming of this.

 

9. The Idiot

- The man really gets Russian lierature. Instead of a lot of critics I've read who make the Dostoevsky work about a Christ like figure, Kurosawa maks him all too human. Dostoevsky was a huge innovater of existentialism and Kurosawa seems to be one of the few people to have gotten that point in his translation.

 

10. Sanjuro

- Really fun, and the end swordfight is absolutly perfect. If only Hollywood had seen the point of that.

[RobertR]

OK, show is tonight which I'll probably flip back and forth during slowspots and commercians in the Brewers game.

 

Top predictions for each category.

 

Animation - Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs

Romantic Comedy - Annie Hall

Western - The Searchers

Sports - Raging Bull

Mystery - Chinatown

Fantasy - Lord of the Rings (The Return of the King if they don't combine them.)

Sci Fi - Star Wars (Maybe 2001 will beat it out, but I doubt it.)

Gangster - The Godfather

Courtroom Drama - To Kill a Mockingbird

Epic - Gone With the Wind (With Lawrence of Arabia as the dark horse.)

 

Robert

[valpocrewsader]

I had no idea that "Big", "Groundhog Day", and "It's A Wonderful Life" would count as Fantasy movies. Seems like a reach. I see Comedy, Comedy, and Drama. Three super awesome movies, but Fantasy? meh. I also don't think "Back to the Future" has any business being in Science Fiction. "Jerry Maguire" being in the Sports top 10 is embarassing ... all of their Sports choices are pretty much awful. Only one of the ten Westerns was made after 1971 ... yikes. "Pulp Fiction" as a top 10 Gangster flick? Ugh. Glad I wasn't way off with my "Schindler's List" thought in the Epic category -- #3, not bad. "Saving Private Ryan"? A pretty good movie, but top 10 Epic?