Weeks to DL w/sprained knee; Iribarren Recalled (reply #25)

[nate82]

Not that this is likely to happen but...if the lineup without Rickie (i.e. different lead off guy) plays well, Branyan continues to play well (not at the crazy level he's at now), and Hall for whatever reason starts raking...is Rickie out of starting job when he comes back?

Rickie would have been out of a starting job if Graffanino didn't get hurt last year the way he was playing when Rickie was sent down to the minors (which should have been earlier in the year it was obvious that his wrist was bothering him).

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Weeks needs to produce some results and to be honest since his wrist is "healed" he has looked pretty bad this year.

 

So if we're going to just point to two recent months with a healthy wrist, why not Aug. & Sept. of 2007? Is it because he was incredible, and that makes the 'Weeks is unproductive' chant seem strange? I just don't get how short people's memories can be.

 

I know you're probably not just out to witch-hunt Weeks, JJHardy7, but if two months is all we need to 'know' what a player is, then imho it's only fair to include the two months he was healthy last season, too.

[JJHardy7]

Weeks is only one year older than Ryan Braun. Weeks will turn 26 this year. Considering most players are thought to peak at 28 and maintain that until their early 30's I think it is reasonable to expect Weeks to get better.

 

Braun has shown a ton more in 2 years in the bigs compared to this being Rickie's 4 years in the bigs. My point is that Weeks hasn't shown on a consistent basis that he's going to be an above average second baseman. He very well may peak later on, but what is Weeks' peak right now? I think that's a very legit question. I know it's been brought up before that players boom later on in there career, but my point is when do the Brewers stop sacrificing that position and move on? I'm not saying Weeks will play at the level he is for the rest of his career, but if it's holding the team back a change should be made sooner rather than later.

 

So if we're going to just point to two recent months with a healthy wrist, why not Aug. & Sept. of 2007? Is it because he was incredible, and that makes the 'Weeks is unproductive' chant seem strange? I just don't get how short people's memories can be.

 

I know you're probably not just out to witch-hunt Weeks, JJHardy7, but if two months is all we need to 'know' what a player is, then imho it's only fair to include the two months he was healthy last season, too.

 

He did play well in August and September, but IMO I don't think it had as much to do with his wrist as his approach. He was humbled to get sent down to AAA and play very well there. He gained some confidence and brought that back to the bigs. I'm not out to get Weeks by any means, but I do think it's a fair question. If Weeks was only healthy for four months in his MLB career, again he shouldn't have been playing then. Weeks has all the tools to be an all-star 2B, but at what point and time does a team with playoff dreams that haven't been reached in a long time decide to go another direction or at least prepare themselves. I hope the thinking isn't Weeks is the 2B, but Weeks is the 2B for now and we have to look for another 2B should Weeks not develop.

[kramnoj]

know it's been brought up before that players boom later on in there career, but my point is when do the Brewers stop sacrificing that position and move on?

 

Besides a slump this year, when do you think the Brewers have been sacrificing 2B?

 

at what point and time does a team with playoff dreams that haven't been reached in a long time decide to go another direction or at least prepare themselves.

 

What makes you think the Brewers aren't preparing themselves?

[logan82]

You are saying that he isn't exactly a spring chicken. I am saying that he is still pretty young and not even to the point where most players peak.

[Gobias Industries]

You are saying that he isn't exactly a spring chicken. I am saying that he is still pretty young and not even to the point where most players peak.

Not to mention, he doesn't have 4 full years of at-bats, as a lot of people always claim. It's roughly 2.5 years worth of AB's because of a couple of half years, with about half of those coming while he hasn't been 100%.

[JJHardy7]

Besides a slump this year, when do you think the Brewers have been sacrificing 2B?

 

I'd say Weeks entire career. His defense has been bad and his offense IMO has not ever made up for that. My point is they could get better production instead of "waiting" for Weeks if it turns out he's not the right guy.

 

What makes you think the Brewers aren't preparing themselves?

 

Name the next best 2B to take over for Weeks that's in the minors....

[kramnoj]

His defense has been bad and his offense IMO has not ever made up for that

 

What is your opinion based on? Last year Weeks OPS+ was 108. You think his defense was so bad that it equaled "sacrificing" the position? What does that actually mean?

 

Name the next best 2B to take over for Weeks that's in the minors....

 

Irribarren is now in the majors. He was moved to the OF this year because it looked like Weeks was making the strides to become a fixture at 2B. Escobar could be moved to 2B if needed. He's probably a +20 defensive player, and his bat is improving enough that he should be above replacement level. Just because the Brewers don't have a future guaranteed All Star waiting in the minors doesn't mean they aren't thinking about possible replacements for Weeks if needed.

[silversurferr]

Any chance that his knee is worse than the team is letting on? Cartilage or partial ACL tear? Also, I wonder about Week's eyesight. Simply put, with his swing and bat speed, he should make better contact than he does. Part of the problem is his moronic tendency to stand on top of the plate. Maybe few inches off the plate and a heavier bat, and he could better develop his power potential.?

[TheCrew07]

TLB.

I'm not glossing over his injury, but he did hurt himself in the dugout, which admittedly does irritate me some. He's shown flashes of brilliance, but that's exactly what all talented players do, even if they never reach their potential. It's like what you said in the Yost thread, they show you just enough that you keep believing... I went from enthusiastic about his talent on draft day to guardedly optomistic when he struggled in AA, and I remain so to do this day. I have a hard time with people who seem to claim that his wrist was magically healed when he went down to AAA and that's why he started raking... I dont' buy it, not at all... If you're healthy enough to play, you're healthy enough to produce... what does his wrist have to do with horrible pitch selection and not being able to hit a breaking ball? His bat speed was still there, it looked to me like he played with 0 zero confidence and was up there getting fooled when he was looking for a different pitch. One hot month won't change my opinion of him anymore than it changed my opinion of Jenkins...

 

If you choose to believe that an injury is hiding his true talent, that's fine. I simply do not believe that, the same way I think that when JJ gets all slappy with defensive swings it's in his head, and not that he's hurt. I'm not a professional scount, but I do have a fair amount of experience reading the body language of athletes, and to me it's more an issue of confidence than anything else. Could the injury affect his confidence? Maybe last year, but it certainly shouldn't be this year.

 

At his current level of production he is expendable, that was a present tense reference. I should have cleared up any questions about my opinion when I said I was willing to wait and see how it plays out. The 2 ideas are not in conflict as you seem to suggest, one is an extension of the other.

[piccione88]

JJHardy7 wrote:

Name the next best 2B to take over for Weeks that's in the minors....

 

There really are very few second base prospects around the league. Teams will generally keep middle infielders at short, until they have proved beyond a doubt, that they will not be able to play there. Mike Bell, currently playing in huntsville, is a guy that I like though, he has pretty good pop in his bat, especially for second base. Iribarren, might be able to be an everyday second baseman sometime, as well, you do not need to hit a ton to play at second.

 

As for Rickie, it is still too early too give up on him, I think. Weeks has played through some injuries, and still has plenty of time to reach his amazing potential. Even if he does not become what he can be, he is not as bad at the plate as he has been this year.

[danzig6767]

I've long been a Weeks supporter who thought it was only a matter of when he broke out and became the player we all hoped for. It's year number four though of him being our everyday player at second. The reasons and/or excuses for his very inconsistent production at the plate are finally wearing thin with me.

 

If Weeks can't show pretty dramatic improvement at the plate as this year goes on, i would hope Melvin checks into at least finding someone else to play second for us next year. It's gotta be pretty dramatic improvement at the plate because i don't see him ever becoming a good defender because he just lacks the fielding instincts other good middle infielders have.

 

If he wasn't a subpar defensive player, it would be easier to stomach these prolonged hitting slumps that Weeks gets himself into. The double whammy of bad offense and defense from him when his bat is cold, that's a real problem for the team.

[brewjihad]

Name the next best 2B to take over for Weeks that's in the minors....

 

Taylor Green is playing mostly at 3rd at Brevard County, but he's considered an above-average second basemen and is learning third to increase his verstatility. He's putting up an impressive 0.316 0.404 0.465 0.869 line. And as already mentioned, Mike Bell is a big-time sleeper who gets overlooked a lot.

 

For the record I think Weeks will be fine, but there are options in the minor league system.

[JJHardy7]

What is your opinion based on? Last year Weeks OPS+ was 108. You think his defense was so bad that it equaled "sacrificing" the position? What does that actually mean?

 

If Braun's offense wasn't good enough to make up for his defense, than Weeks offense isn't either. Now if you look at some numbers at some given points they're not horrible, but Weeks was so hyped up in the minors as the next best thing. He hasn't really met too many of those expectations in my mind. I hope he does.

 

Irribarren is now in the majors. He was moved to the OF this year because it looked like Weeks was making the strides to become a fixture at 2B. Escobar could be moved to 2B if needed. He's probably a +20 defensive player, and his bat is improving enough that he should be above replacement level. Just because the Brewers don't have a future guaranteed All Star waiting in the minors doesn't mean they aren't thinking about possible replacements for Weeks if needed.

 

The Hurricane isn't a bad option, but there isn't a prospect in the minors with the potential that Weeks had/has waiting in the wings. Other posters have mentioned guys on the lower levels who may pan out, but The Hurricane appears to be the only option in 2008 and 2009.

 

I guess my main point is how long does Weeks live on potential? I know there were discussions on who was better in the minors -- Fielder or Weeks, but it now appears Weeks is behind Braun, Fielder, Hart, and quite possibly Hardy.

[Glennron]

So has Iribarren jumped ahead of Joe D for top pinch hit options against righties? I went to baseball-reference to look at each of their splits against LHP/RHP in the minors but they don't have it, does anyone know where I could find that?

[endaround]

minorleaguesplits.com-though it doesn't have stats before 08 available right now. Dillon though hasn't shown any real type of split and Iribarren isn't as good of a hitter no matter what hand the pitcher throws with. And Yost alos used the guy who can actually play 2B first after Hardy already went down.

[Fatter than Joey]

If Braun's offense wasn't good enough to make up for his defense, than Weeks offense isn't either.

 

I don't think this is a fair comparison.

 

Braun's D was historically bad, but so was his offense (but good). Braun has not struggled at any point in his career (for extended periods) and I think his O has outweighed his D -- that said, I think it is clear that moving Braun has maximized his overall contribution. My point is, based on what I have seen of Braun, I think you get his bat in the lineup no matter where he plays.

 

Weeks however has not performed at the same level as Braun. Weeks D is subpar at best, and there probably is a point where if Weeks struggles offensively (for whatever reason), he can easily be replaced.

[JJHardy7]

I don't think this is a fair comparison.

 

Braun's D was historically bad, but so was his offense (but good). Braun has not struggled at any point in his career (for extended periods) and I think his O has outweighed his D -- that said, I think it is clear that moving Braun has maximized his overall contribution. My point is, based on what I have seen of Braun, I think you get his bat in the lineup no matter where he plays.

 

Weeks however has not performed at the same level as Braun. Weeks D is subpar at best, and there probably is a point where if Weeks struggles offensively (for whatever reason), he can easily be replaced.

 

I get what you're saying FTJ and I know you wanted Braun moved (which I respect) and I wanted him to stay there. I guess I just don't get how Weeks has more or less been given a pass with subpar defense and by and large subpar offense. Braun had a few years of professional ball playing 3B and Weeks has had a lot more time to develop his defense and IMO it's just not there. His bat isn't that valuable in the lineup this year to consider him the long-term 2B of the Milwaukee Brewers IMO.

[Fatter than Joey]

I wanted no part of Weeks playing 2b, however, when Weeks hit the scene the Brewers weren't going anywhere. I don't think Weeks's D is as bad as Braun's.

 

I don't think Weeks will ever be a good 2b defensively, and I agree his bat is not going to make up for it.

[endaround]

Weeks is not very good at 2B. Braun is the worst 3B major leaguer anyone alive has ever seen. There is a difference.

[And That]

IMO, Weeks' defense has improved a good bit this year (as it has year to year). He's basically to the point where if a ball is hit at him, I don't cringe in fear. His RZR is slightly below league average, but he's made more out of zone plays than any second baseman beside Chase Utley. While he's not terribly great at second, he's no longer terrible either, and he was never at Braun's third base level of play there.

 

I also still think he'll hit... he's hit into terrible luck this year. If his batting average was even 30 points higher, which by all accounts it should be, he'd be one of the 10 best offensive second baseman in baseball by OPS.