Weeks to DL w/sprained knee; Iribarren Recalled (reply #25)

[monty57]

Hall came up as a 2B, so it makes loads of sense to move him there while Rickie's out. This would allow him to play every day to see if he can break out of his "slump" vs. righties. It would also allow us to see more of Joe Dillon vs. lefties to see if he could be an answer if Hall were to be traded.

 

As for the order, I'd probably move Hart to leadoff, Hardy to second and put Cameron at #5. Cameron seems more of a natural #5 hitter to me, as he's more of a SLG guy than an OBP guy.

[lcbj68c]

I didn't call him Santa... I said believing in him was like believing in Santa. ie.."He'll only come around once a year". "He looks better in Red (Cardinal Red, Red Sox Red)" etc.

 

Calling him Santa, now that is harsh. Rickie Weeks isn't 350 lbs! Come on Now.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

it may be a good opportunity to see if he'll ever be an MLB player vs AAAA.

 

A couple notes here. First, I would think he'd have to prove that he was a legitimate AAA hitter before you could even begin to think about him as a "AAAA" player. Second, what could he do in a couple of weeks of occasional PT that would sway you one way or the other on this question? Even if he started every game until Weeks came back (assuming he comes back the first day he's eligible), you'd be looking at maybe 50 PA. Unless he goes 0-50 with 50 Ks or 50-50 with 50 HR, that's too small a sample to be throwing around career-killing terminology.

 

And this isn't directed to the above post specifically, but can I just say how much I despise the "AAAA" concept? It has about as much claim to an actual referrant as the phrase "master race". In other words, there is no such thing as a "AAAA" player. If you are too good for AAA, you are good enough to keep some job at the major league level, at least as a reserve or mop-up relief guy.

 

What does exist, tragically, is a huge number of guys unfairly branded "AAAA" because of some lousy luck in a too-small sample of data that is ludicrously being weighed more heavily than years and years of minor league data because of a prejudice that is at least twice as silly as it is old.

[fallingleaves]

Lets hope Rickie on the DL would spur a trade for Roberts, he would drastically improve the Crew.

[TheCrew07]

I know I'm in the minority, but why should every position be played by Bill Hall? What has he done the last 2 years to warrant continual playing time? He's got tools sure, but where are the results? Yes I know he was rushed which probably hindered his developement, but he cashed in on one super season. It seems that every positional topic comes down to Hall... Hall vs Gamel, Hall vs Hardy, Hall vs Weeks, Hall vs Dillon... Bill Hall is a very average baseball player, with nice power for a guy up the middle, but he's nothing special on the corners. While he has good power, he's not a good hitter, and he's an inconsistent fielder. My problem with all of this is that people make constant excuses for him... he's still a better player than so and so... even if it were true in every instance (I'd debate that he's not a better all around player than any of the guys I mentioned) that wouldn't change the fact that Billy has always been the odd guy out. I'm comfortable saying that if he was in the organization's long term plans at one point, he certaintly isn't now, as there is no way they sign Cameron if he was. The writing is on the wall with Billy, I'd be very surprised if he's on this team next season. He seems to be a great guy, who does good things in the community, but those things shouldn't overshadow what he does between the lines, or what's in the best long term interest of the organization.

 

Weeks has obvious tools as well, but I've never been a huge fan of his either. It's much the same for him around here, he's never been healthy, yada yada yada... The bottom line to me is that he doesn't produce consistently, and he's expendable. I'm a results guy, and I firmly believe that you take results over talent.... Would the Brewers regret letting Weeks go? Maybe, but how long can you realistically wait on a guy? I don't think the answer is indefinately... I'm not sure what the correct answer is, but the guy I eye as his replacement, Taylor Green, is still a couple of years away, so I'm willing to ride him out till a better option presents itself or he finally puts his tools to use.

[endaround]

If Hall wasn't in the long term plans when they signed Cameron he would have already been traded. Cameron was signed because the Brewers finally admitted Braun can't play 3B (after it almost cost him the ROY). And why Hall now? Because the other options at 2B are worse by a long shot.

[lcbj68c]

I like Taylor Green as wel, but he does need some work with the glove. He is averaging an error nearly every 4-5 days. Offensively though, he is all of the things I need from a 2b. Almost 1:1 on BB:KK ratio. He doesn't steal bases, but he does hit for some power as well. He is averaging a home run every 40 atbats, which would translate to about 15 a season at the big league level.

[TooLiveBrew]

Weeks has obvious tools as well, but I've never been a huge fan of his either. It's much the same for him around here, he's never been healthy, yada yada yada... The bottom line to me is that he doesn't produce consistently, and he's expendable. I'm a results guy, and I firmly believe that you take results over talent....

 

It's just all too convenient if you get to 'yadda yadda' over relevant factors that have affected results. If you want to just speak in broad strokes like this, then you're certainly going to be able to say whatever you want, since certain impacts can arbitrarily be ignored.

 

How can you track the career of Rickie Weeks, and not discuss the wrist injuries that have plagued him for all but a small portion of his MLB time? It's just irresponsible imho. It'd be like saying, yeah, well, that Gallardo kid is good & all, but he went down with a knee injury -- he's just not good enough since he can't be out there pitching right now. I know Weeks hasn't had the success of a Yovani yet, but let's be fair -- Gallardo is a young, high-tier prospect SP that had success early in his career so far (not uncommon), and Weeks is a high-power ceiling hitter that's still growing into his power (not uncommon).

 

The notion that we should discount Rickie's injuries & evaluate him based on 1/3 of this season is absurd to me. Ok, talk about trading him -- sure, I can understand that. But this talk about 'I'm a results guy' to me just says you're not willing to acknowledge that (frustrating as it may be), there's more at play than simply, 'Well, looks like Rickie Weeks just can't match his talent with results.'

 

 

EDIT: I should clarify & say that any time one strong month from a player would totally reverse public opinion on the player, the preceding stats/data set should be taken with a large grain of salt. It's astonishing to me how short some people's memories are. I wonder how much closer to 'today' Weeks would need to have displayed his talent than August & September of 2007 for people to actually... freaking... remember it.

[logan82]

One interesting note is that this year defensively

 

Roberts 4.67RF, .805 ZR

Weeks 4.56RF, .807ZR

 

Roberts also shows up in the bottom of players in UZR. I know it is only this season and should be considered small sample, but I find it interesting since one of the biggest arguments to getting Roberts instead of Weeks is defense.

[TheCrew07]

It's possible they could have aquired a 3B instead of Cameron and as far the defense goes... It might be tad better, but it's certainly not winning any ball games...

 

No, the options at 2B might be worse defensively in Dillon or offensively in Counsell... but at this moment in time Bill Hall is not a better all around player than either guy.

 

Hall has been pushed out 3 times now, Hardy at SS, Braun at 3B, Cameron in CF... time will tell, but to me that signifies that he's been a stop gap measure. They wouldn't have traded him last off season because they didn't have an adequate replacement at 3B, that would have left a bigger hole that is already there.

[endaround]

They tried, the Rolen deal fell through. So your entire premise is faulty. Hall is vastly superior to Dillon defensively and vastly superior to Counsell offensively, that makes him the better player.

[bcf5575]

i hope they give billy a shot at 2b while weeks is out. make it a "here's your chance - prove we are wrong and win your job back." i think that the point has been proven to him that he has to produce or he doesnt play. now he has 2 weeks to get motivated and do something with this chance...

i can already see a counsel/dillion platoon at 2b and the branyan/hall platoon at 3b though. just another thing for me to yell at the tv about when I watch the brewers tonite...

[brewjihad]

For the leadoff spot now that Weeks is out, how about Jason Kendall?

Weeks OBP: .325

Kendall OBP: .324

I like what Kendall brings to the table defensively, but he's living off a hot 2 weeks to start the season. His hitting has been pretty bad- OPS+ of 72.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Hall is probably significantly better at 2B than Dillon, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he's "vastly superior" to Dillon defensively, in general.

 

Hall's been quite bad at 3B this year. UZR has him at -20 runs / 150 games. That's not quite Braun bad, but it's among the worst regular 3B in baseball. I think moving him off of 3B will help his defense, because 2B plays to his strengths (IF range, making plays on the move), whereas 3B is more of a reactions / instincts position. His middle infield UZR ratings were quite good while he still played those positions regularly. But if memory serves, advanced metrics have always disliked his defense at 3B, even before this season. Standard caveats about the reliability of advanced defensive metrics aside, of course.

 

On the other hand, I really don't think it's out of the question that Dillon might actually be a better defensive 3B than Hall.

 

So, the right move is pretty obvious, isn't it? Hall starts at 2B most days (maybe have Counsell spell him against high K-rate RHP), Branyan / Dillon platoon at 3B. If Hall can't be made to see the additional PT as a worthwhile tradeoff for being moved off 3B, then he's being awfully stubborn. If I was Hall, I'd be about ready to embrace a super-sub role again, if only to decrease the chances that I wash out of the big leagues completely once my contract is up.

 

Odds that the Brewers actually do this? I'd go about 3-1 or 4-1 against. My guess is Hall sees 0 starts at 2B over the next week and a half.

[TheCrew07]

TLB,

I yada'd over the details because I had no interest getting into a circular and lengthly debate about his career. I should have known better, as people love to debate Rickie, and I believe you over reacted somewhat. There is no right answer... there is a segment that will believe his wrist injury has held him back because of his potential, and there is another segment that will look at performance and be skeptical of the effect of the wrist injury. How can an opinion be irresponsible? Because it's different from what you believe? Irresponsible is leaving your child unattended at a ball game, not posting on a message board, we aren't curing cancer here.

You compared Yo to Weeks... Weeks was the second overall pick in the draft, Yo was a second round pick, I think it's reasonable for people to at least have similar expectations given how hyped Weeks has always been. To be fair, he's not hit for average or power, so I guess he's still growing into both? Also to be fair, I didn't say I'd replace Rickie today, I said I'm willing to ride him out until a better option presents itself or he plays to his potential... either the way the position as it stands today is upgradable, which I believe to be a reasonable opinion.

Week's MLB Career

The best thing about his career numbers is that his OBP is a full 100 points higher than his BA, there's definately potential there for a special player. Hardy, Hall, and Weeks all have career OPS+ under 100, even with Hall's 116/125 in 05/06 he's only 99. Hall and Weeks have huge upside, Hardy does the best with what he has in the field, but I think he has more to give offensively. Many people will ride out talent indefinately, I simply will not, due to personal experience. I believe that talent get the first opportunity to succeed and then you take the best results and let the chips fall where they may.

edit. fixed poor grammer

[TooLiveBrew]

I'd love to see BTTM's scenario (Branyan/Dillon @ 3B, Hall/Counsell @ 2B -- not meaning a strict platoon at second). Aside from just trying to play to a guy's strengths, 2B is one of the (if not the) weakest positions offensively. That could help offset whatever WOAHs Hall is dealing with right now.

 

 

Also to be fair, I didn't say I'd replace Rickie today, I said I'm willing to ride him out until a better option presents itself or he plays to his potential... either the way the position as it stands today is upgradable, which I believe to be a reasonable opinion.

No, you didn't say you'd replace him... but you said, "The bottom line to me is that he doesn't produce consistently, and he's expendable."

Very definitive & concrete, as opposed to the 'let's ride him out' that you mentioned later. It's not that I have any qualms with how you 'feel' about Rickie, it's the logic that leads one there that I find faulty. Your opinion that, 'bottom line -- he doesn't produce consistently' is based upon accepting that an injured Rickie Weeks is all we're ever going to see, in terms of offense. You glossed over the fact that injuries have indeed affected his production (& people's opinion of him), and chose to ignore the two healthy months he's had prior to 2008 (which happened to be stellar, but a small sample).

 

 

How can an opinion be irresponsible?

 

When it intentionally ignores relevant factors. I don't think we're 'curing cancer' here, but objectivity is important imo.

 

 

There is no right answer... there is a segment that will believe his wrist injury has held him back because of his potential, and there is another segment that will look at performance and be skeptical of the effect of the wrist injury.

 

There is a segment of the team's payroll -- the doctors -- that correctly diagnosed & timetabled Weeks's injuries. This is where I'm talking about being irresponsible. If you find that word offensive or inaccurate, I apologize. This 'other segment' appears to be choosing to avoid accepting medical facts about Weeks because he's had 2 slow months to start 2008. I'm not trying to say Weeks hasn't been bad to start the season. What I am saying is that if we're going to discuss what he is as a player, we should consider all the relevant facts.

 

 

Many people will ride out talent indefinately, I simply will not, due to personal experience. I believe that talent get the first opportunity to succeed and then you take the best results and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I agree. However, if you're not factoring in very real injuries, then I don't think you're getting an accurate view of either talent or results/performance.

[brewjihad]

I like the idea being thrown around here, with one minor revision- have Hernan be the 'loose platoon' guy against tough righties at second. I've never seen anyone say that Irabarren is capable of playing short, and Ned has to get his 1 Counsell for Hardy day in there every week. I don't need 2 days of Counsell every week, thank you.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

I'd be fine with Hernan getting the spot starts against tough RHP. In fact, that might make more sense. Otherwise, why the bejeezus is he on the MLB roster? If they only use him as a PH, Nelson would have been far and away a better call-up.

[JJHardy7]

The thing I love about Weeks are the excuses side vs. the performance side. It makes for very interesting debate, but I'd like to try and point out Weeks isn't a spring chicken. In my opinion regardless of the excuses or his lack of production there comes a point and time where a replacement needs to be groomed. I'm not saying Weeks should be replaced today, but I honestly hope at this point and time the Brewers don't see him in the same light as Braun and Hart. I do believe the rest of the season (given that Weeks is healthy so we can toss aside all his health factors) will go a long way in determining his future. Should he not perform to expectations we'll have a 2B with plenty of potential in 2009 that turns 27 the end of the season.

 

I'm not a Weeks hater or anything, but if this organization is going to go where we all want it to go players have to be held accountable for their performance. Maybe we trade Weeks in the off-season and a few years from now he becomes good -- we need results sooner rather than later. How long do we wait for Weeks to develop? That's an honest question.

[TooLiveBrew]

The thing I love about Weeks are the excuses side vs. the performance side. It makes for very interesting debate, but I'd like to try and point out Weeks isn't a spring chicken. In my opinion regardless of the excuses or his lack of production there comes a point and time where a replacement needs to be groomed.

 

This is what I'm talking about -- the argument that Weeks is just some wussy for being injured, or that injury isn't a 'real' explanation to frustrated fans. I don't think Rickie is viewed as anything but Rickie to the Brewers. Each individual player is a unique case. But instead of being objective, people seem to take comfort in just mocking the objectivity that (imho) should be inherent in any player analysis.

 

 

How long do we wait for Weeks to develop? That's an honest question.

 

At least until the end of 2008. What I really wanted to see was this be a full, healthy season for Rickie. Too bad he sucks at not getting slid into dirtily!

[igor67]

Aramis Ramirez. Interesting case for a little career comparison.

[nate82]

I'd be fine with Hernan getting the spot starts against tough RHP. In fact, that might make more sense. Otherwise, why the bejeezus is he on the MLB roster? If they only use him as a PH, Nelson would have been far and away a better call-up.

Hernan can play more spots than Nelson can that is why he was called up. Right now it is only Kapler who can play all of the OF spots with Dillon being able to take a corner spot. Nelson would be a PH only compared to Hernan.

 

[kramnoj]

Edgar Martinez didn't get to be a starter until his age 27 season. The Brewers should of course be grooming Weeks replacement, but that doesn't mean that Weeks should be on some short leash. He was valuable the two previous years, and has obviously been in a serious slump this year. Sure, if he hasn't become a better hitter by the end of 2009, then the Brewers will probably need to cut bait, whether that's a dump trade or just declining arbitration. Until then, the Brewers should do everything they can to help Weeks reach his potential while also developing players in the system to replace him if needed.

[JJHardy7]

This is what I'm talking about -- the argument that Weeks is just some wussy for being injured, or that injury isn't a 'real' explanation to frustrated fans. I don't think Rickie is viewed as anything but Rickie to the Brewers. Each individual player is a unique case. But instead of being objective, people seem to take comfort in just mocking the objectivity that (imho) should be inherent in any player analysis.

 

I'm not accusing him of being a wuss. Either the injury has held him back or it hasn't. There are those that think it's injury and those that think it's not. I personally think if his wrist was that bad of an injury he shouldn't have played through it because it did hurt the team. I understand he couldn't have hurt it more so, but the Brewers could've had some better results than what he produced during that time period and so far in '08.

 

At least until the end of 2008. What I really wanted to see was this be a full, healthy season for Rickie. Too bad he sucks at not getting slid into dirtily!

 

That is fine by mean, but again once he's off the DL the injury thing doesn't work. Weeks needs to produce some results and to be honest since his wrist is "healed" he has looked pretty bad this year. I just hope if he comes back and produces the same it's not blamed on his latest injury because if it changes his game that much he shouldn't be playing. My point is that since Weeks has been with the Brewers 2B has been his and not thought of. I think that has to change. We need to develop a prospect to fill in for Weeks if need be. He isn't 22 years old and finding his way through. I personally think there's no reason for his strikeouts since he's seen big league pitching now for four years. I can buy into the power not being there I guess, but by now he should be a lot more advanced than what he is. Based on his stats alone he's having one of his worst years while "healthy". Something has to give eventually.

 

Not that this is likely to happen but...if the lineup without Rickie (i.e. different lead off guy) plays well, Branyan continues to play well (not at the crazy level he's at now), and Hall for whatever reason starts raking...is Rickie out of starting job when he comes back?

[logan82]

Weeks is only one year older than Ryan Braun. Weeks will turn 26 this year. Considering most players are thought to peak at 28 and maintain that until their early 30's I think it is reasonable to expect Weeks to get better.