"TH isn't hard enough on Yost"

[MickeyDavis]

I don't like TH's balding head. He writes like an old who's mad about his combs.

 

Something like that.

Oh oh, now you'll really make his wife mad.

 

[1992casey]

Hey, gang, six posts in this thread have been hidden from view for various reasons. If you'd like it to stay open, please play nice and within the rules.

[jazzytrav]

Mickey:

Ask me or my wife if being a sportswriter is stressful.

And all I do is cover preps and small colleges in Dubuque, IA, and southwest Wisconsin.

I promise you, TH's job is plenty stressful.

 

As stressful as a paramedic or fireman? Of course not.

But as TooLive pointed out so well, that would be a pretty short list, wouldn't it? If that's the standard, there are only about 5 stressful jobs in the world.

The original post about stress was responding to a post that basically said TH does a bad job. The response was that we don't understand how much stress he is under. Stress is not an excuse for doing a bad job. Maybe he's not doing a bad job...I don't really care either way. But the whole stress thing came up as a response to a post that seemed to be using it as an excuse.

 

It could have more or less stress than any other job...I don't really care. The members of my credit union don't need to know how stressful my job is, and they probably don't care. When we take jobs, we know that there's a certain amount of stress involved, and we know what the pay is.

[TheCrew07]

As for bullpen roles, it is what it is. What don't you understand? Every team does it so this is not a mind blowing thing. It's not just Yost. Teams pay big money to sign setup and closers in the offseason and at the trade deadline. So they are going to be used there. Mota is our guy and if he is rested, he is going to go. Yost has other things to worry about when deciding on usage of a pitcher. If a reliever pitches two innings, he will then need more recovery time. He prefers to use guys less is possible so he has more options available for today and for the games ahead. But you can think you called everything and on and on. I guess you can read the future and should pick up managing so you make the move before it happens.

 

Sometimes I think people need to take a step back and look at the whole season. We win games and everybody is giddy with excitement. We lose and Yost sucks and we have every excuse for the players. We should be able to hold that lead. Period. This Yost thing is just out of control and apparently players would play better if he was gone. I don't see it.

Nice job taking a simple post with a simple concept and running in a completely different direction... the knee jerk reaction was your post.

 

As far as my post, what don't you understand? I like Yost, I always have, but I hate the fact that he has a 7th and 8th inning guy. I beat this to death last year and if you weren't around that's fine, but I think it's a pretty simple concept, treat your relievers like you would your starter. I have no problem with a closer, but if a pitcher goes well like Villy was, why change? It's different if you need to pinch hit for him, but that wasn't the case. This isn't a knee jerk reaction post, this isn't the first time I've brought up this concept, I've been very consistent on this concept. I've noticed other teams who will run a reliever 2 innings in a close game if they breeze through their first inning... I must be way outside the box on this one.

 

Mota always makes me nervous... the only relievers with more walks are Gagne and Turnbow, I just didn't like him coming in to that situation. I was watching the game with my father as we had gone out for fish and my mother's plane was delayed until 11:30... he asked me why I didn't like Mota coming in as it didn't bother him and I explained the concept I mentioned above, I don't really know what else to say. Again Weeks didn't do him any favors on that line drive, but it was hard hit so I don't think it's fair to say that Mota got the short end of the stick in that inning. Shouse relies on arm angle and movement, what's not to understand? His pitches weren't breaking hardly at all, the first pitch that was hit for a home run was straight as an arrow at 78 MPH, I might have got a bat on that. I don't think Coors matches up well with Shouse's skill set, but again, at least he got outs.

 

Villy is a starter, he could go 2 innings and pitch the next day... again, it was only 10 pitches and this guy was a starter a couple of weeks ago. Recovery time doesn't factor into it much in my opinion, every pitcher in the pen can pitch multiple days regardless if they go 2 innings, and why would they need anything more than the standard 1 day off? Wise is no longer in the bullpen.

 

I never liked how Yost would run his closer out there 5 days in a row just because he was the closer either, but recently he said he's adopted the 3 days in a row rule. If you pitch 3 days in a row, you're unavailable regardless how you say you feel, and this applies to all pitchers in the pen. I can get on board with that concept and that was a positive delevopement from my point of view.

 

Obviously I can read the future and Yost should consult me by cell phone before making any pitching changes... this should go without saying.

 

edit. fixed spelling.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The original post about stress was responding to a post that basically said TH does a bad job. The response was that we don't understand how much stress he is under. Stress is not an excuse for doing a bad job. Maybe he's not doing a bad job...I don't really care either way. But the whole stress thing came up as a response to a post that seemed to be using it as an excuse.

No it wasn't. It was a response to fans who seem to think that TH's job entails watching games from his living room and then writing a 500-word report on them. People don't have a lick of knowledge about what his job actually entails. Most people couldn't do it. They wouldn't do it after they did it for a week and saw the paycheck. Not an excuse for him doing a bad job (I don't think he does). It was a reality check for people who are under the impression that TH is just a very lucky Brewers fan. It's not like that.

 

[1992casey]

A sampling of condescending quotes from posts in this thread that have been hidden:

• These are all ridiculous claims. There is not a shred of reality in these comments.

 

• to comment that the job of a MLB beat writer isn't stressful is absurd.

 

• to say that being a beat writer is stressful is about the most inane thing I've ever seen here on this board.

 

• Grow a set.

 

• Take your arrogance & lack of knowledge out of this discussion.

 

• Pot. Kettle. Mrs. Haudricourt?

 

• I'm sorry, but your comment is just so inaccurate, it's really quite absurd.

[MickeyDavis]

No it wasn't. It was a response to fans who seem to think that TH's job entails watching games from his living room and then writing a 500-word report on them.

That's what makes his "reporting" so sad. For those who do watch the games he adds nothing. And those who don't watch the games could read the generic AP game recap and get the same thing. Whether his job is "stressful" is irrelevant .

 

TH is a lot like Yost actually. An average (at his absolute best) beat writer. But that's to be expected with a rag like the MJS and a sports department headed up by Garry Howard. Howard is the esteemed editor who gets free courtside seats to the Bucks games and makes his Bucks beat writer sit 26 rows up in Section 216. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[MickeyDavis]

A sampling of condescending quotes from posts in this thread that have been hidden:

One or two of those were mine and I apologize. I was responding to other posts but I wandered off the topic of Haudricourt.

[Bruce Ciskie]

That's what makes his "reporting" so sad. For those who do watch the games he adds nothing. And those who don't watch the games could read the generic AP game recap and get the same thing. Whether his job is "stressful" is irrelevant .

I think this question was asked once and glossed over.

 

What would you like him to add?

 

He talks about what happened in the game, compiles some usually relevant quotes from the clubhouses, and files a story. The difference between us and him is that he actually travels for the road games, and he has to put up with potentially (usually?) snarly people in the clubhouse so he can get some thoughts from the participants.

 

This story is a good example of the crap a beat writer goes through.

 

"I think (Mota's splits) are the product of a couple of bad games, more than anything else," Yost said. "It's not a trend, I would say.

"He had one bad outing, to be honest with you, here lately. I don't think his trend line is going down because he had a bad outing (Friday)."

Actually, Mota has had more than one bad outing. He blew a save opportunity against Los Angeles on May 14 by allowing three runs in the ninth inning. And he lost a game May 25 in Washington in the ninth when he allowed a walk, single and wild pitch that sent home the winning run.

Of the game in Washington, Yost said, "That wasn't a bad outing. He came in after going two innings the day before and had a very clean first inning, then walked a guy on a 3-2 pitch, gave up a base hit, which made it first and third, and then wild-pitched him home.

"That's not a bad outing. He lost. It would be nice if we could get our facts straight.

"I've got no problem with what happened (Friday) night. Mota didn't walk the ballpark. And we didn't throw the ball around. He got beat. It happens."

Emphasis mine.

 

Just think: Haudricourt had to sit there and listen to that. Without laughing.

[MickeyDavis]

Exactly. He asks the obvious questions but doesn't follow up when Yost gives ridiculous answers. I know some say that a beat writer can't ask those follow up questions, that he has to maintain a good "relationship" with the manager and players. That's playing it safe. Why bother? Just let the AP beat writer file a story and the MJS can reprint it.

[jeffy]

He seemed to do a lot of contradicting of Yost in today's newspaper column...

 

Despite statistical evidence to the contrary, Brewers manager Ned Yost said Saturday he still believes reliever Guillermo Mota is his best option in the eighth inning with a lead.

 

He (Mota) also has been getting tagged by left-handed hitters (.366 average), yet Yost let him face Todd Helton, who crushed an RBI double off the center-field wall.

The reliever Yost removed from the game in favor of Mota, Carlos Villanueva, is holding left-handed hitters to a .216 batting average this season.

etc.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=759697

 

 

[MickeyDavis]

Yeah that whole badger blogger incident was too funny.

[berniebrewer4life]

Exactly. He asks the obvious questions but doesn't follow up when Yost gives ridiculous answers. I know some say that a beat writer can't ask those follow up questions, that he has to maintain a good "relationship" with the manager and players. That's playing it safe. Why bother? Just let the AP beat writer file a story and the MJS can reprint it.

I think that's it in a nutshell. The reason some folks think TH does a bad job is because he won't ask the "tough questions" or hold Ned responsible for anything. Is it right to hold him to that standard? I donno. But you are right, he just seems to basically write a gloss over, AP story. I guess the real question is if so many of us admit that MJS is an inferior newspaper(which many seem to have that opinion here), why would we expect anything more than an inferior beat reporter?

[MickeyDavis]

You're absolutely right Bernie. TH (and AW) fit right into the MJS model of mediocrity. They might as well hire Davey Nelson too.

[Bruce Ciskie]

Exactly. He asks the obvious questions but doesn't follow up when Yost gives ridiculous answers. I know some say that a beat writer can't ask those follow up questions, that he has to maintain a good "relationship" with the manager and players. That's playing it safe. Why bother? Just let the AP beat writer file a story and the MJS can reprint it.

 

How do you know what was asked? Were you there? Do you have the full transcript? Perhaps TH asked another question and didn't deem the answer worthy of printing. These guys are limited by space, and they don't always get to post 3,000-word masterpieces.

 

But you are correct. If you want any kind of clue what is going on in the clubhouse, the beat reporters have to maintain some kind of rapport. That's what makes situations like Friday so difficult. Yost pretty clearly doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, and yet Haudricourt has to get something out of him when he does something as incredibly idiotic as what he did in the eighth inning Friday. But if TH is too confrontation or too probing, his job becomes more difficult as a result. Such is the life of a beat reporter. I'm sure we'd all love for the media to second-guess Yost on a daily basis, but it's not how you build a productive working relationship with the organization.

 

So TH arms himself with some facts, asks some pointed questions, makes the manager look like an idiot, prints it, and it's still not good enough. Such is the life of a beat reporter. We get a bunch of armchair quarterbacks - myself included, in some cases - telling them how to do their jobs, too. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[rluzinski]

Just think: Haudricourt had to sit there and listen to that. Without laughing.

 

Yost was trying to make a point (and it's a fair one) that you can't just look at the results to determine if it was a good or bad performance (meaning, they are two different things). Putting aside whether Mota's outing on Friday was a good performance, or not (I don't recall how he looked), it just illustrates how result-based fans and the media are when trying to judge performance. A pitcher could give up 4 straight weak infield hits and that's a bad performance. A closer could give up a lead off walk and then give up 3 line drives right at defenders and he had a good performance. I can just look at a box score and the play-by-play if I want that kind of analysis.

 

Tom H. would read the above and call me crazy , of course. He'd say, "Mota lost the damn game! How could you NOT call it a bad performance!?" I already know that, Tom. Was his velocity down? Was his location bad on the single? Could he not throw his off speed stuff for strikes? Give us something.

 

Despite statistical evidence to the contrary...

 

My sirens always go off when Tom decides to pull out the calculator and "prove" things with the numbers. He's using hopelessly small samples as evidence, as he generally does. Mota has a huge LH/RH split for the season but it's June, Tom! You'd think a veteran beat writer would appreciate the folly of drawing conclusions from 31 AB agaisnt LHers.

 

Hell, look at Mota's splits from (2005-2007):

 

vs. LH: .244/.326/.458/.784

vs. RH: .270/.328/.438/.766

 

On another day, Tom might have said, "Mota is a great option against LH hitters, as they have hit only .244 against him over the 3 previous seasons".

 

Of course, the correct thing to do is start with his CAREER splits"

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=motagu01

 

So, LHers have an OPS about 50 point higher than RHers do against him. That's pretty close to an average split. If Mota shouldn't have been pitching in the 8th, it's because he's not a very good pitcher against anyone at this point in his career. The splits are meaningless.

[endaround]

Tom H's use of statistics means pointing out Capuano not winning 16 straight games as if it has significance. His masterful knowledge apparently also does not include knowing Jason Kendall's father played major league baseball.

[Jay Zahn]

Yost is known to be a positive type of guy with his players and not give up on them, so maybe he just said Mota was the eighth inning guy to try to give him a confidence boost. Today he used Shouse in the 8th. Sparky Anderson used to say a lot of stupid things too.

[rluzinski]

Yost is known to be a positive type of guy with his players and not give up on them, so maybe he just said Mota was the eighth inning guy to try to give him a confidence boost.

 

That's a fair point. Yost always protects his players from the media and why shouldn't he? The coaching staff will let the players know what's expected of them privately. It might make some fans feel better by seeing a maneger throw one of his players under the bus but it generally serves no real purpose. TH will continue to take Yost to task for not going it, though.

 

That only explains about half of the crazy things Yost says, however. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Oldcity]

I don't really like TH, but in his defense, Yost really seems like the type of guy who would treat you like dirt or ignore you completely if you continuously grilled him with tough, challenging questions. He gets so defensive and condescending in those interviews sometimes. It probably makes it hard to ask a lot of tough questions.

[Invader3K]

I don't know. Personally I appreciate Haudricourt. It used to be just a few years back that substantive Brewers coverage in the papers was few and far between. It's a tightrope walk that he has to do...he has to be "tough" occasionally, but it's not like he can just completely alienate Yost and the Brewers' upper management. If he did, he would probably have to say goodbye to a lot of interviews and other opportunities.

[uwisfan]

He's been taking quite a few subtle jabs at Yost in his articles lately. Definitely showing a little more grit than normal. I like it.

In this age of formulaic three-out saves by major-league closers

 

There's really only so far he can go while still keeping a repoire with the club

[rluzinski]

Coco had 5, 4 out saves last year, so it's not like Yost hasn't shown he's willing to go more than 1 inning with a closer.

[logan82]

Here are the saves and who got them for each team broken down into 3+ inning saves, less than 3 inning and more than 3 out saves, 3 out saves, and less than 3 out saves.

 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pKN8HdBGjC9LbPpfvDTv3eA

[MickeyDavis]

Serioulsy MD why do you insist on constantly bashing the MJS.

It's simple. Garry Howard is in charge and it's all downhill from the top. The Brewers and Bucks coverage are one in the same. Tom Enlund and Tom Haudricourt are old timers who are still covering games as if it's the 70's. Howard throws in ace soccer reporter Charles Garnder to add his insight and he adds Witrado for reasons completely unknown. If you go to Bucks games you'll see Garry Howard with his comfy comped courtside seat every game. The reporter he has covering the Bucks? Up in row 26 of section 212. Funny stuff.

 

If you are happy with the MJS's coverage, that's great. Buy your paper and enjoy the read.

 

The whole purpose of forums like this is to discuss various topics. I didn't start this thread but I did add my opinion. Some have the same opinion and some don't. If yours is different than mine, that's fine with me. It's too bad you haven't taken the time to actually tell us why you think Haudricourt and the MJS offer great Brewer coverage.