Sheets blurb in Sporting News

[pogokat]

i think they'll re-sign him...and i think he'll get like 4 years 50-55 million...

 

he could get more cash than that, but i wouldn't be surprised to see him sign a fairly reasonable deal...

 

i suspect he'll get 4-5 years, and the biggest contract in brewers history..but he'll stay..

 

and since i don't think this team is going to be hurting for money over the next few years, i say sign him...

 

and why is everyone trying to dump suppan? we can't replace him in house and any other decent free agent is going to cost the same amount...suppan is helthy every year...i like him..

[MJLiverock]

Couldn't agree more bcf5575. If they can't or don't resign Sheets they can pretty much kiss playoff hopes good bye for the foreseeable future. The staff isn't that good to begin with and taking away the one top of the line guy will doom the staff to mediocrity. A staff of Gallardo coming of knee surgeries while still being a young and somewhat unproven starter, followed by Suppan and Parra and then what? Bush? McClung? That doesn't look good. I don't know that Villanueva will ever be an effective starter for an entire season, I like him but he just can't seem to get through the order a 3rd time because his stuff just isn't good enough. He may be destined to be a reliever or starter in the mold of Vargas. There really isn't anyone in the minors ready to go and be a top of the line guy. Othewise this team will be a .500 ball club with a good offense and a below average staff.

 

The only caveat I see is some sort of blockbuster trade involving Fielder or some of the minor league guys like Gamel or Laporta to bring in a high quality major league pitcher.

[sgtcluels]

With Sheets injury past I hope they FO and Sheets can come up with a reasonable deal as he's missed a lot of playing time. I think a 3 or 4 year deal for Sheeters seems reasonable enough perhaps with IP clauses to increase his salary. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[RSteadman19]

I think Sheets is needed for this team to go anywhere, with Ben, Yo and Manny you have a solid top three that is young with a vet at the top in Sheets. Then if you can't move Soup you have him to be your fourth starter. Then if you want to move Prince for a big time starter you can.

[jhart05]

I think they will resign him if they are serious about making the playoffs right now.

 

But I expect it's going to take something in the 4 yr/$65M or 5 yr/$80M range. The players association will not let him take a "home town discount".

 

Then the Brewers will have to cross their fingers and toes that he can average 30 starts over those 4 or 5 years.

 

 

 

and why is everyone trying to dump suppan? we can't replace him in house and any other decent free agent is going to cost the same amount...suppan is helthy every year...i like him..

 

I like him too, but he's due to make almost #1 starter type money the next two years. When with a healthy staff, he's only the 4th best starter.

[Samurai Bucky]

I have a feeling Sheeter will go to Houston if the Brewers don't pony up. He made a statement to a buddy of mine a few years ago as they were walking around before a signing that he would like to play for Houston. I think that is before he signed what is now his current contract.

[Crewin06]

After the season Suppan could have some serious value.

 

2 years left with a possibility of 3 at big money but not crippling money for an effective pitcher that makes 30+ starts a year.

 

Now I would hate to lose Suppan, but if the Brewers needed to free up money for Sheets. I think there would be a big market for Soup and I think the Brewers could bring in a pretty good haul.

 

As for Sheets his value probably puts him at around 4/60, so in free agency some crazy team will probably come up with a crazy offer of 5/90.

 

The Brewers should definitely make Sheets a solid offer. Personally I would offer the 4/60 right now. However I would hate to see them get into a bidding war.

[TooLiveBrew]

also, the idea that getting some compensatory draft picks for losing high caliber players makes it worthwhile is garbage.

 

Garbage? You prefer Kevin Mench & Laynce Nix? Cordero (any CP) straight-up isn't the value of a slugger like Carlos Lee, though clearly CoCo is good. At the time, he was thought to be an above-avg. RP... and had fallen out of favor in Texas. I'd much rather take two extremely high draft picks than a rental of a player. Why do you think Texas traded for Lee in the first place? They got basically a younger, cheaper version of Mench, a top-notch slugger in Lee, and the inevitable two high picks when he walked. Even if they felt CoCo was the pitcher he re-awakened to be in Milwaukee, a non-contending team like Texas has no use for a closer when you have a deal like that fall in your lap.

 

I think it was a good job scouting by DM & Co., but the industry comments at the time seemed to indicate that most felt Cordero could/should have been had for much less, and that the return for Lee should have been much more. It's not like Lee alone netted all three players.

 

Why people dismiss amateur & minor-league players confuses me.

[bcf5575]

My point is that these draft picks might not even turn into Kevin Mench or Laynce Nix. They could be Dave Krynzel. Or Mike Jones. Don't get me wrong - I am glad that we had the picks and I hope these guys turn into something someday. But it doesn't even come close to replacing what a Ben Sheets means to this team...

[Tbadder]

I'll never be convinced that the Brewers are flush with money. Certainly they have a lot more money than before, but other teams are raking in the money as well and their ability to cause salaries to rise cannot be underestimated. Why would Benny settle for Suppan money (in Soup's last two years) when he's clearly the better ballplayer?

 

I'll say this. If he doesn't sign before the season ends and he tests the market, he's looking at 80 to 100 million. The Mets or Yankees, heck maybe even the Tigers (they're nuts) will pony up.

 

But in the end I jusat don't think it's a good idea to sign the Sheeter. I love the guy, but he's turning the corner and his injury history scares the crap outta me.

 

Having said that, if we don't get substantial offers of at least one young stud pitcher and others , then the Crew probably is better off taking a chance signing him, knowing that they may end up with just a couple of draft choices.

[nate82]

Suppan's, Gagne's, and Hall's contract have no bearing what so ever on the Brewers resigning Sheets. The money that they are costing the Brewers just doesn't automatically comes back and regrows on the money tree. If the Brewers are going to resign Sheets they are going to resign him. It has nothing to do with any of the contracts currently on the team.

 

But if you really believe that these contracts actually mean something. This year Sheets is making $12,125,000. Now if Sheets is going to resign with the Brewers it will be at about 12.5 million to 15 million a year. Now if Sheets signs at the higher rate which would be about 15 million to 17 million dollars. The Brewers would only have to increase payroll by about 5 million on the high side.

 

Again Suppan's, Gagne's, and Hall's contract and even Braun's contract does not have any bearing on if Sheets is going to be resigned or not.

[TooLiveBrew]

How you claim there's "no bearing" ignores the concept of a budget. Sure, they may not really stand in the way, but they certainly have bearing on the decision.

[Darnell Junior]

I feel like the Brewers could very well be more flexible with money than they've been letting on. I read somewhere (sorry I can't recall where) that last year the Brewers were the 2nd most profitable franchise in the majors, behind only the Yankees. This was with a team that barely played above .500. Milwaukee is a great baseball town, and if we get into the 90 win area I think we'd have enough revenue where we could bump up the payroll to around 100 million range. I think its a pipedream that we'll resign Sheets, however. I'd be very tempted to move him at the deadline for a high end pitching prospect or two, but I'm not ready to throw away our postseason dreams for this year. Two compensatory picks for an A level free agent is nothing to be scoffed at. I think we need all the money we can come up with to sign basically an entire new bullpen next year, and lock up a few of our guys heading into arbitration. Even with a payroll that's increasing every year I think we should start thinking of creative ways to get another top end starter, or start praying that Parra or Villanueva develop, because thinking we'll be a NL Central Powerhouse with our rotation sans Sheets is ludicrous in my opinion.

[Crewin06]

Suppan's, Gagne's, and Hall's contract have no bearing what so ever on the Brewers resigning Sheets. The money that they are costing the Brewers just doesn't automatically comes back and regrows on the money tree. If the Brewers are going to resign Sheets they are going to resign him. It has nothing to do with any of the contracts currently on the team.

 

But if you really believe that these contracts actually mean something. This year Sheets is making $12,125,000. Now if Sheets is going to resign with the Brewers it will be at about 12.5 million to 15 million a year. Now if Sheets signs at the higher rate which would be about 15 million to 17 million dollars. The Brewers would only have to increase payroll by about 5 million on the high side.

 

Again Suppan's, Gagne's, and Hall's contract and even Braun's contract does not have any bearing on if Sheets is going to be resigned or not.

 

Really?

 

Good to know. Glad to hear that the Brewers have an unlimited budget.

 

With the new found unlimited budget I think the Brewers should go after CC Sabathia too.

 

And yes. If you trade Suppan for prospects or young players on the minimum that decreases the payroll by his salary so you can add more salary in other places. It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.

 

Small market teams have a maximum amount they will spend. If you don't think the salaries of other players affect the decision to keep FA such as Sheets you are kidding yourself.

 

No its not just Suppan and Hall but it is the collective team and I doubt this team will ever be in the top 10 in salary spenders.

 

Paying Suppan's 12.5 slot and Hall's Slot definitely has an effect on the Brewers ability to pay Sheets.

[nate82]

How you claim there's "no bearing" ignores the concept of a budget. Sure, they may not really stand in the way, but they certainly have bearing on the decision.

No they don't. Here is why. Sheets is making $12,125,000 this year. That is this year now if Sheets is to sign another contract an increase of $6 million would be needed to keep Sheets around. Now lets see who we are losing and then who we will be gaining. With Sheets resigning for lets say $60 million for 4 years for the Brewers. Now lets assume it is a straight line contract that is 15 million a year an increase in salary of 2.875 Million dollars that is how much the salary will increase from last year with Sheets resigning with the Brewers.

Now lets take into account we do not renew Gagne's contract we are losing $10 million in salary. Now we are at -$7.125 salary from last years salary. This is including Suppan's and Hall's contract. This does not include Braun's contract currently. I have to get back to work so I'll explain this more later when I have more time to look up the current team salary with Braun's new contract included and if we don't take Cameron's option.

[logan82]

That's only next year though. We have to look at and project salaries over the duration of the contract instead of just looking at next year. I would say that we easily could sign Sheets for next year if he would accept a one year contract. The problem comes 3-4 years down the road(since he is probably going to get a 4+ year contract) when he isn't performing up to expectations and we are saddled with a terrible contract. Our best strategy as a franchise is to remain flexible year to year. Sure we are going to overpay for shorter contracts, but when a player fails to live up to the contract we aren't stuck and struggling to field a winning team for years because of that contract.

[Crewin06]

No they don't. Here is why. Sheets is making $12,125,000 this year. That is this year now if Sheets is to sign another contract an increase of $6 million would be needed to keep Sheets around. Now lets see who we are losing and then who we will be gaining. With Sheets resigning for lets say $60 million for 4 years for the Brewers. Now lets assume it is a straight line contract that is 15 million a year an increase in salary of 2.875 Million dollars that is how much the salary will increase from last year with Sheets resigning with the Brewers.

Now lets take into account we do not renew Gagne's contract we are losing $10 million in salary. Now we are at -$7.125 salary from last years salary. This is including Suppan's and Hall's contract. This does not include Braun's contract currently. I have to get back to work so I'll explain this more later when I have more time to look up the current team salary with Braun's new contract included and if we don't take Cameron's option.

 

While you are at it you can add on about 7 million for Fielder at least, 4 million for Suppan, probably around 4 million for Hart, a couple million for Hardy, couple million for Weeks, Bush will go up. (Arbitration such as 7 for Prince, 4 for Hart are just guestimates, I have no idea where they will be)

 

Yes you can subtract Gagne's and Cameron's salary, but you have to also add in Fielder, Hart, Hardy, Week's and Bush's Arbitration raises. Incremental salary raises for Suppan, Riske, Torres, Hall and the rest. Plus replacing players that leave such as Cameron and the bullpen.

 

You can't look at the salary structure in a vacuum and say they have 30 million coming off so they have 30 million to spend next year on acquisitions.

[steve267268]

Yes, players will get raises, and you won't have all of that money to work with. However, to say that contracts like Gagne's and Cameron's have no impact on whether or not we can re-sign Sheets is just silly. There might not be a salary cap but there is definitly a salary budget. It might as well be a salary cap, only it's enforced by the owner and not the league. So yes, getting rid of Hall, Cameron, Gagne, Counsell and Suppan does free up about 30 Million. Part of it will have to go to raises but part could be spent on Sheets.

 

Successful business owners like Mark Attanasio didn't get where they were by shrugging off an "extra couple million per year".

[endaround]

Successful business owners like Mark Attanasio didn't get where they were by shrugging off an "extra couple million per year".

Not that familiar with high finance?

 

[nate82]

While you are at it you can add on about 7 million for Fielder at least, 4 million for Suppan, probably around 4 million for Hart, a couple million for Hardy, couple million for Weeks, Bush will go up. (Arbitration such as 7 for Prince, 4 for Hart are just guestimates, I have no idea where they will be)

 

Yes you can subtract Gagne's and Cameron's salary, but you have to also add in Fielder, Hart, Hardy, Week's and Bush's Arbitration raises. Incremental salary raises for Suppan, Riske, Torres, Hall and the rest. Plus replacing players that leave such as Cameron and the bullpen.

 

You can't look at the salary structure in a vacuum and say they have 30 million coming off so they have 30 million to spend next year on acquisitions.

Actually you can. Because this has already been figured into the budget. Prince, Hart, Hardy, and Weeks salary increases have already been figured in. These increases are going to be paid with or without Sheets being resigned. These numbers are static it has no bearing what so ever on the resigning of Sheets.

 

Now lets look at not just the cuts from Cameron and Gagne. We can look at the owner increasing payroll. What is included in that is Prince, Hardy, Hart, and Weeks salary increases. Now take that out and you are left with Gagne's and Cameron's salaries. Now subtract those two contracts from the current salary and you get the extra money that will be available to increase payroll.

 

Every contract currently on the Brewers has been forecast to go along with any future salaries. Ben Sheets contract this year ends and that is $12 million worth that is coming off the books. Now the Brewers have $12 million from Sheets $10 million from Gagne and I'm not sure what the option is for Cameron. Now since all of the other players salaries have been figured into the next budget and it increases with what they will be making. You still have extra money coming off the books with those 3 players and that is enough to either resign 1 player and 1 type C free agent or just 1 type A free agent. The Brewers have room to resign Sheets or go after a type A free agent.

 

It isn't as dire as some people make it out to be. The Brewers are not the Yankees or Red Sox but they are not poor either. The Brewers have a lot of room to resign Sheets and resign Hart and Weeks to a long term deal. Prince is not an option to sign long term. If you give Sheets a 4 year contract near the end of the contract Gallardo will be coming out of his final year of arbitration I believe. Suppan will also be off the books.

 

I don't see why everyone is worried about the financials for the Brewers. The Brewers are fine financially and have the money to be able to resign Sheets. The Brewers and about every single team in MLB can support a team financially with a payroll around or above $100 million. There is no reason what so ever why any team in MLB can not support a $100 million team salary. If everyone only knew how much every owner in MLB can write off and depreciate the team and stadium for.

[TooLiveBrew]

Every contract currently on the Brewers has been forecast to go along with any future salaries. Ben Sheets contract this year ends and that is $12 million worth that is coming off the books

 

Is your argument that future contract years (ie Soup, Hall) are figured in & therefore static, yet Ben's contract coming off the books isn't static and is free money? A budget's a budget. You can talk about it however you want, but realistically the Brewers aren't going to see their budget increase by more than a few million next year (just my guess). Adding in that any deal with Sheets extends beyond one season, as do arbitration/pay increases, and you have to plan deeper than, 'Hey -- we've got the money next year!'

 

 

The Brewers are fine financially and have the money to be able to resign Sheets.

 

No one here is arguing they don't. In fact, people have repeated to you that it's not a question of "can", but instead "should". Your argument appears to be that, for 2009, they can afford Sheets's salary, so he should be signed for 4-ish seasons.

[nate82]

Is your argument that future contract years (ie Soup, Hall) are figured in & therefore static, yet Ben's contract coming off the books isn't static and is free money? A budget's a budget. You can talk about it however you want, but realistically the Brewers aren't going to see their budget increase by more than a few million next year (just my guess). Adding in that any deal with Sheets extends beyond one season, as do arbitration/pay increases, and you have to plan deeper than, 'Hey -- we've got the money next year!'

No not at all. The Brewers have enough room in the budget to resign Sheets not just for next year but for the next 4 years and to be able to sign Weeks and Hart to a long term contract. You also figured out why any contract signed at all doesn't have any bearing on a new contract since you are already committed to paying that contract anyways.

No one here is arguing they don't. In fact, people have repeated to you that it's not a question of "can", but instead "should". Your argument appears to be that, for 2009, they can afford Sheets's salary, so he should be signed for 4-ish seasons.

I get that but I'm not arguing we should I'm saying we can. I actually believe we should resign Sheets if that happens or not that will be determined by Sheets his agent and the Brewers. They also can afford Sheets for the next 4 years and they can afford Hart and Weeks. If Weeks tanks after his final year of his contract there are other options like Iribarren and any other future draft pick who would be cheaper than Weeks. That also gives you some flexibility to sign Gallardo long term since by the time Gallardo will be coming out of arbitration Sheets will be nearing the last 2 years of his contract and Suppan will be off the books.

I was also trying to do this really fast and put in some examples why the Brewers are able to keep the salaries they have and yet increase the budget for the next couple of years. Since the budget is going to increase in the next couple of years regardless if we resign Sheets or not. The increase in cost of Sheets to the Brewers is only about $5 million which is very affordable for the Brewers. Should they do this maybe and maybe not. It all depends on where the Brewers see themselves in the next couple of years.

All I'm arguing about is that they can and the current contracts on the team have no bearing on whether Sheets is signed or not. It will be Sheets health considerations and any other options that may become available to the Brewers.

[TooLiveBrew]

I get that but I'm not arguing we should I'm saying we can.

Why? So far the discussion has been "should" (not "could"). I count at least 12 posts of people discussing either that it's a "should" question or just that we should re-sign Sheets... one post that mentioned he felt Sheets would be out of our price range, due to bigger markets offering more money over more seasons, not because the Brewers can't afford him per se.


You also figured out why any contract signed at all doesn't have any bearing on a new contract since you are already committed to paying that contract anyways.

So, money set in place, affects overall amount that can be spent... no bearing?

[TheCrew07]

Nate I'm just sure what you're trying to say, I don't want to knock on you, but your math doesn't add up. A budget is a fixed amount... if the payroll is 80 million, and should stay at 80 million, then when some players make more money the following year, that means other players have to make less. Considering that players in arby get a raise every year, and the players under contract all more more money next year, to resign Sheets there has to be a cheap influx of talent someplace. The more the players in the left hand make, the less money there is available for the players in the right hand...

 

I don't see why everyone is worried about the financials for the Brewers. The Brewers are fine financially and have the money to be able to resign Sheets.

 

Apparently you missed the part where the franchise was over 100 million dollars in debt? This was covered in great detail on the old forum, but the Brewer's revenue stream is one of the worst in MLB. They have to be fiscally responsible to keep the franchise viable. Mark A isn't in this to run his investment into the ground, and while he has deep pockets, I'm pretty willing to trust that when he sets a budget for the team, it's pretty much exactly where the payroll needs to be for the financial good of the franchise. You don't get to the level he's gotten making bad business decisions.

[danzig6767]

Apparently you missed the part where the franchise was over 100 million dollars in debt? This was covered in great detail on the old forum, but the Brewer's revenue stream is one of the worst in MLB. They have to be fiscally responsible to keep the franchise viable. Mark A isn't in this to run his investment into the ground, and while he has deep pockets, I'm pretty willing to trust that when he sets a budget for the team, it's pretty much exactly where the payroll needs to be for the financial good of the franchise. You don't get to the level he's gotten making bad business decisions.

The debt is only in place because Attanasio wanted it there for tax reasons. When Mark bought the team, he paid less up front because he assumed debt, that debt could have been paid off on the sale if he wanted to. Since Attanasio has owned the team, he's made healthy profit totals each year and used good amounts of that profit to lower the debt, which makes the team more valuable whenever he chooses to sell. That debt isn't as much a team debt as it is Mark's debt and each year he keeps paying it down is roughly the same as putting it in his own pocket.

Their revenue streams overall aren't that poor either when you factor in all the money the Brewers receive from revenue sharing and attendance. The TV contract is where the team is getting short changed. I'm not trying to imply that Attanasio shouldn't be able to keep pocketing profits each year like he has been, but these aren't the Selig day with little revenue coming in and the team losing money each year.

As for Sheets, any chance to sign him will need to be before he hits the market. If Sheets wants to stay enough to take less, we might have a chance. The yearly amount he wants obviously will matter, but i see the number of years being the key sticking point. If he'll take something like says 3 years with a 4th year vesting based on innings pitched and with a team buyout, i can see the Brewers being very interested. Maybe Attanasio/Melvin would give four guaranteed years at around 15 per, but i see that as the max limit and mabye they'll view that as to much risk. If he wants 5 years, Ben's gone for sure.