Report: Hall's agent requests trade- Latest: Melvin "Not really motivated" to move him

[jazzytrav]

I'm not talking about team chemistry. I'm talking about his trade value. If he really wants to be traded, then he should understand that the team isn't going to get less for him than what they value him at. Demanding a trade hurts that value, and actually makes a trade LESS likely, in my opinion. It's just stupid to go public with stuff like that.

[Time for a Miller]

Some old school Bill Hall hate from me and others

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?t=382/t/Official-Vent-Thread.html?page=3

 

Had to me more gentle with my dislike back then. Hall seems like a good guy off the field, but I've never liked his approach to the game. He is not consitent on offense or defense.

[JJHardy7]

3) Bill Hall was stupid to let his trade demand out.

 

Agreed. That was one of the major issues I have with it. Weeks and Hardy might be slumping, but they don't have huge contracts with the Brewers.

 

and i feel that hall is getting a raw deal right now. he was starting to hit with some consistency a few games before branyan was called up--this is what may irk him the most. perhaps these comments by him may actually help him/brewers through this situation.

 

I think this point here is one we'll just have to agree to disagree. When looking at Weeks, Hardy, Braun, Hart, and Fielder when they struggle there are somewhat valid points -- injuries, adjusting to mlb pitching, mlb pitching adjusting to them, etc. What is Hall's excuse? I'm not saying I hate the guy or anything, but I think his lack of "excuses" makes it easier to trade him or bench him compared to the younger guys. Hall appears to be regressing at a stage in his career where should more or less be in his prime -- at least he's getting paid like it I guess.

[Time for a Miller]

http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?t=382/t/Official-Vent-Thread.html?page=3

Sorry didn't link in last post

and now this link is not going to the right place. I give up for today

[TooLiveBrew]

Not at all but he still doesn't have any power to speak of against MLB type pitchers in the past 2 years. If his minor league numbers were that good wouldn't you see the same against MLB type pitchers? We are not seeing these numbers he is not what he is in the minors. There were players in the past for the Brewers who were great at spring training does that make them a great player? I will take the stats from a guy who has been producing at the MLB level over the one who has been producing at AAA. Again Dillon is nothing more than a AAAA type of a player.

 

...

 

Dillon can't make any of the plays Hall makes and most of them are the ones that 3B are expected to make. Dillon can not make those plays. He doesn't have the arm for it.

If we 'can't' use his minor league success, what can be said to refute you? Of course you haven't yet mentioned Dillon's MLB line v. LHP -- .486/.581/.629/1.210. If that's not 'showing it', I don't know what is. Sure, it's only 35 PA but if minor league numbers magically 'don't count', then that's what we're stuck with right there.

 

I have yet to see the 'Dillon is unfit to play 3B' development. He's been fine there. Hall's athleticism allows him to make some plays that fans remember over all the less-memorable 'Ole!' moves he pulls at third. Yes, he's been much better than Braun. That is not necessarily a compliment. Dillon doesn't have the arm for routine 3B plays? I think you & I might have watched different Joe Dillons.

[ozzybourne]

jj--would not the position changes equal your definition of agreeable 'excuses' for bill hall? c'mon--after his great year at shortstop, and 2 years in a row of changing position, and now the platoon, dont you think he has a right to vent? and it was his agent that did the trade talk to TH.

 

i'd like to see how long it would take for weeks or hardy or anyone to complain if they were in hall's situation. frankly i think hall has been rather stoic about the whole thing until now.

 

 

jazzy-point taken about trade value.

 

also the value would go up if he were actually playing. but then he would't ask for the trade. its catch-22.

[mls4]

These points have basically been covered, but I would be surprised if the Brewers trade Hall.

 

1) They very well may need him to be the regular 3B again this season. We are riding out Branyan's hot streak, but I think he still needs to prove he is a reliable option over the rest of the season.

2) Even if Branyan sticks, Hall has very good value as a backup and against LHP. Most likely this value is not going to be realized in a trade.

 

These are my answers to the agent's not-so-rhetorical question "If you were the Brewers, why wouldn't you move him?"

[bjkrautk]

Ryan Braun, 2007: 112 games, 248 total chances, 26 errors (.895 F%, .697 ZR)

Bill Hall (3b), 2008: 50 games (47 starts), 138 total chances, 13 errors (.906 F%, .788 ZR)

 

I don't think people have put into context just how bad Hall has been on defense, to go with his hitting struggles. He's actually on a pace to have more errors than Braun had last year (on a per-game basis), only in part because he's had more chances to fail.

 

I'll spot Hall defenders that Billy's range means he probably gets to more balls than Braun did (thus the higher number of chances / inning)....but I don't think it was Braun's range that was the problem.

 

 

That being said, I don't think it's coincidental that Hall's complaint came within days of watching Joe Dillon start at second base. Would he prefer not to be a super-sub, if he can't hack it everyday at one position?

[jeffy]

Bill Hall is also corect in that there are plenty of Brewers slumping season long and they haven't been platooned. I do believe that based on the Brewers reasons for platooning Hall, that Weeks and Hardy should also have been platooned.

 

With who?

 

I think, the platoon for Hall has as much or more to do with the Brewers happening to have Branyon as it does with Hall. Bill Hall is just unlucky in that Branyon happens to live in Nashville, since that is apparently the only reason Branyon signed a minor league contract with the Brewers.

[lukevan]

For those asking why Weeks and Hardy aren't getting platooned: How many bench players do you want us to carry? And who is going to put up better numbers v. RHP than Weeks and Hardy? This isn't about what's fair, it's about what helps the Brewers win more games.

 

For those worried about the difference between Dillon and Hall v. LHP: If Hall could be part of a trade package that netted us a good starting pitcher (#2 or #3), wouldn't that be worth the (debatable) small dropoff in the 100-150 PAs left on the year against LHP for the 3B position? I think Dillon could even be a better overall hitter than Hall v. LHP when factoring in OBP. And isn't better OBP what this team needs? People shouldn't be worried about Dillon's bat just because he hasn't gotten enough PAs in the majors: as TLB pointed out, his splits v. LHP in the majors have actually been very good.

[nate82]

If you have Dillon in the lineup where do you put him? Do you put him in the 7th spot? With a career 4 extra base hits yeah thats some real production versus left handed pitching. That is J.J. Hardy like against RHP. The production in the lineup significantly decreases with Dillon in the lineup against LHP than it does with Hall.

 

Again what has Dillon done in the MLB? Answer is nothing. He has done absolutely nothing to deserve to be in a lineup as a starter. No one has yet to prove that Dillon is a good player in the MLB he doesn't even have enough PA's to justify even starting him. Dillon is a Jeffrey Hammonds like player and we all know how well that turned out. Just because you have good stats in one spot in your career doesn't make you good. Hammonds was good in Colorado and Dillon was good in the minors both are not good MLB type players.

[jazzytrav]

Again what has Dillon done in the MLB? Answer is nothing.

From TooLiveBrew:

 

 

Of course you haven't yet mentioned Dillon's MLB line v. LHP -- .486/.581/.629/1.210.

Now nate, are you trying to ignore these things? Would you like all players to come into the majors with 2 years of major league experience so you feel better?

[TheCrew07]

What opportunity has Dillon had in MLB? Why would you use 1/4 of a year's worth of total MLB ABs when you can easily look at his minor league numbers and see what he's realistically capable of?. Every single guy on this team was once someone without MLB experience... this is like the Corey Hart arguements all over again. My opinion is, and always has been that Dillon will put up an OPS in the mid 700s to mid 800s if he plays everyday. He wouldn't be a star, but he'd be right around average, which is fine by me, and I love his approach at the plate.

 

Again dismissing someone like Dillon because he hasn't accomplished anything at MLB isn't very objective, you're only considering a very small sample of his career.

[TooLiveBrew]

to all the posters ready to hang hall out to dry, remember your battlecry about many postings on prince and weeks--the season is still early, it's only 33% over--dont give up on them. but throw hall to the wolves.

 

This is a fair & valid point. In fact, this popped into my head this morning as I was getting ready for work. Why do I differentiate with Hall?

 

 

2008 v. RHP: .162/.224/.324/.548 (.182 BABIP)

 

2007 v. RHP: .247/.305/.408/.713 (.308 BABIP)

 

2006 v. RHP: .261/.321/.525/.846 (.314 BABIP)

 

2005 v. RHP: .277/.319/.473/.793 (.314 BABIP)

 

Career v. RHP: .253/.303/.450/.752 (.307 BABIP)

 

 

Basically, because if we're fair & wait for him to regress upwards towards his mean or 'expected' performance v. RHP, we're waiting for (at best) what we already have with Branyan -- and Branyan's BB skills are vastly superior to Hall's. Hall has hit for a higher average v. RHP than Branyan, yet still has a (significantly) lower OBP. Hall's OPS v. RHP is skewed heavily towards SLG%. Branyan offers the SLG along with some BBs, not to mention superior defense. There really is no sense in waiting for Hall to hopefully give us inferior production to Branyan.

 

Then, compared with Dillon, Hall just really isn't that special either. He's a better option against LHP, but really just not by enough for it to be a deal-breaker. Additionally, Dillon is every bit as capable of manning a dependable 3B as Hall -- Dillon is in the Branyan vein defensively. He won't make the spectacular plays that Hall (very sporadically) makes, but he will be solid & make the plays he should -- something Hall has been suspect doing (Mr. Matador).

 

I like Bill Hall & agree in principle that he should be given similar expectations as Hardy/Weeks/Fielder, etc. However, in Hall's case, there are other sources for comparable (if not superior, on the whole) production. That's just not the case with Rickie, J.J., & Prince... or even Kendall. Hall has done everything the team has asked him to do over the years, but that doesn't mean there should be some sense of loyalty to the happiness of a player trumping the effectiveness of the team.

 

 

EDIT: 4) Russell Branyan is not the answer. If he was, he would have been the answer somewhere, sometime.

 

That's as strawman an argument as it gets, and people bring this up far too often when Branyan comes up. Russell Branyan's career OPS v. RHP is over .800. To call him 'not the answer' when what we need covered is the RHP side of a platoon, is making an argument that 'I don't like him, therefore he's no good/not the answer'. Branyan has been stellar so far -- have you been watching? He's playing over his head a bit to be sure (.400 BABIP), but his production has lined up with how he normally works. Lots of BBs, lots of power, and lots of K's.

 

If Russell doesn't finish at least right near his .800 career rate v. RHP, I'd be absolutely stunned. It'd most likely have to include a nagging injury that would make him basically 'lose talent' (or appear to). He's just a very consistent performer against righties -- you 'know' what you're going to get from him.

[nate82]

Now nate, are you trying to ignore these things? Would you like all players to come into the majors with 2 years of major league experience so you feel better?

No but after two years on the big league club he should be performing better than he has. Dillon is nothing but a bench player nothing more nothing less. He has shown little to no power to get extra base hits. He is slower than Hall, defensively he can't get to all the plays that a MLB 3B is asked to get to. He has a noodle for an arm. Offensively Hall is better than Dillon and brings more to the plate than Dillon does.

 

Hall's ability to hit for power to get extra base hits far out weighs what Dillon brings to you offensively. We already have a couple of guys who can do the high OBP. We have a catcher in Kendall who is exactly like Dillon. Hall brings more production in the lineup than Dillon does. If you have Dillon in the lineup you are losing production. Dillon can fill two holes in the lineup while leaving another hole in the place of Hall. Dillon can be put in the lead off spot Weeks is better there though or you can put him in the 8th spot in the lineup. Kendall already plays that spot in the lineup better than him. Now you either have to put him in the 7th spot and if he is getting on he will just be a double play candidate with Kendall batting in the 8th spot.

Dillon causes no threat for a stolen base he doesn't have the speed to even challenge a pitcher. Hall at least can swipe a base if needed. There is more than just the hitting that will cause a loss in production for the team.

[JJHardy7]

jj--would not the position changes equal your definition of agreeable 'excuses' for bill hall? c'mon--after his great year at shortstop, and 2 years in a row of changing position, and now the platoon, dont you think he has a right to vent? and it was his agent that did the trade talk to TH.

 

He signed a lucrative contract and he's not performing well. I don't think he (or his agent) has the right to publicly ask for a trade. Hall and his agent have to think of how many MLB teams want Hall as an everyday player right now with the way he is performing. If his batting is all position change related, then let's put him at SS and see how he plays. He's back in the infield where most people around here wanted him so I don't really see that as an excuse. It's not like this is Hall's free agent year and the Brewers are potentially costing him future dollars by sitting him. He's a pretty well paid platoon player.

 

i'd like to see how long it would take for weeks or hardy or anyone to complain if they were in hall's situation. frankly i think hall has been rather stoic about the whole thing until now

 

I think this is comparing apples to oranges. If you're not performing, you shouldn't be playing. Hardy and Weeks still have that potential and young player labels attached to them and the organization seems to be more patient with them. If this is Hall being rather stoic about a situation that isn't even that old, I'll be interested to see how he feels in a month in the same position. If he starts hitting, all is well. This is on Hall and his agent and not the Brewers. I hope he starts hitting because I have to believe he's not going to bring back much of anything in a trade.

[jazzytrav]

No but after two years on the big league club he should be performing better than he has. Dillon is nothing but a bench player nothing more nothing less. He has shown little to no power to get extra base hits. He is slower than Hall, defensively he can't get to all the plays that a MLB 3B is asked to get to. He has a noodle for an arm. Offensively Hall is better than Dillon and brings more to the plate than Dillon does.

So far, others have provided statistical evidence of why you're wrong about Dillon. You have provided no evidence other than what you think. What are you basing your conclusions on? The only thing that I can see you basing it on so far is that he hasn't had enough plate appearances, which is hardly something you can hold against a player.

[brewcrew00]

I think ultimately the issue I have is if a player doesn't want to be somewhere, they are not going to produce as their highest level, even if they say they will/are, and do and say all the right things. This bird has flown, let's just get him out of here before it damages the rest of the Clubhouse.

[TooLiveBrew]

No but after two years on the big league club he should be performing better than he has. Dillon is nothing but a bench player nothing more nothing less. He has shown little to no power to get extra base hits. He is slower than Hall, defensively he can't get to all the plays that a MLB 3B is asked to get to. He has a noodle for an arm. Offensively Hall is better than Dillon and brings more to the plate than Dillon does

I wonder if you're capable of being more objective. Basically everything in that paragraph is something you've posted that others have shown to be false, yet you still re-post it all.

Some more efforts at correcting myths:

--Hall does not outweigh Dillon at the plate; Dillon compensates for whatever edge Hall brings in power with better OBP skills. (remember that OBP is generally considered 1.8x as valuable as SLG)

--Should we stop at 'a couple guys who can do the high OBP'? Just two? You're advocating building an offense based on solo HRs

--Kendall is really only similar to Dillon in that they both have good on-base talent. Dillon has much more power.

--If you **(generic, not specific)** leave Hall in the lineup v. righties, you should have your head checked (esp. with Branyan available). If you swap in Dillon for Hall v. LHP, you really don't lose much at all.

--Bill Hall is not a good basestealer. In the made-up land of Triple-A, Dillon actually was 15/20 in 2004, 11/12 in 2005, 6/7 in 2007, and 1/1 in 2008. That's 33/40 (82.5%) -- he hasn't yet attempted a steal in MLB, which may be a sign that as a player, he understands & accepts his limitations.

Now you either have to put him in the 7th spot and if he is getting on he will just be a double play candidate with Kendall batting in the 8th spot.

Dusty, is that you?

EDIT: **to clarify**

[sweepscc]

Only downside: We've got young guys watching how this plays out. If we trade Hall right away the organization will keep getting pushed into a corner by players through the media. It doesn't put Doug in an advantageous position.

[Brian the Automator]

Only downside: We've got young guys watching how this plays out. If we trade Hall right away the organization will keep getting pushed into a corner by players through the media. It doesn't put Doug in an advantageous position.

Honestly, I think players are well aware of what's going on anywhere in MLB, and the problem doesn't have to be located in the Brewers clubhouse to have an impact. This isn't a problem that's unique to Milwaukee, and I'm sure it'll happen again to the next player that feels that they're getting the shaft, despite what happens here with Hall.

 

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I really hope this settles down for a multitude of reasons -

 

1) Billy Hall seems like a great guy. He's taken the hit and moved positions several times. He never complained until recently and has done everything that was asked of him. I sure hope he doesn't get booed...that would only make things worse. Count me in as a "Billy the person" fan.

 

2) I like the platoon. I'm still skeptical of Branyan (please don't kick me off the site for that), but the guy has performed enough at AAA and so far in Milwaukee to warrant the shot. We need another lefty in the lineup too. If Branyan cools off and Billy can get his stroke back to 2006 levels, great. Yost never said this platoon was set in stone. For now, it could really work.

 

3) While Dillon would probably be fine in the platoon, I think he's valuable off the bench. Our starters aren't going to keep this pace up forever...we'll need good PH off the bench. Dillon is very effective in that difficult role...he's a good contact hitter.

 

4) We wouldn't maximize value by trading Hall. Despite how well Gamel is doing, it's still a long way from Huntsville to Milwaukee so sending Billy off to dump his contract makes no sense. I'm not sure I want to go into 2009 with Branyan/Dillon as my 3B. If something comes along that works, great...if not...Billy's got to lump it. If he gets his stroke back, hopefully much of this will be forgotten.

 

5) JJ & Weeks...yes, they haven't performed up to expectations either. If there was a lefty hitter at Nashville stroking it like Branyan at 2B or SS, maybe things would be different...it is what it is. I have no problem with how Yost and Melvin have handled this. They have shown more of a sense of urgency here that I appreciate.

[logan82]

TooLiveBrew wrote:

--Bill Hall is not a good basestealer. In the made-up land of Triple-A, Dillon actually was 15/20 in 2004, 11/12 in 2005, 6/7 in 2007, and 1/1 in 2008. That's 33/40 (82.5%) -- he hasn't yet attempted a steal in MLB, which may be a sign that as a player, he understands & accepts his limitations.

I have never been a big Hall fan but he seemed like a nice guy so I tried not to get on him to much. He has proven all my fears about him to be true so far this year. I said before the year that we were going from historically bad defense at 3B to below average defense. I was hoping I would be wrong.

 

The bolded part is my main issue with Hall. He doesn't seem to understand and accept his limitations. He tries to make throws on defense he has no chance to make. He tries to steal bases despite the fact that he is just terrible at it. He is just good enough to get himself in trouble.

 

It isn't like he has been the perfect team guy this whole time. Yes he did move, but he also complained when he got moved to 3B because of the Cameron signing.

[sheethead]

Can't the Brewers just put a gag order on Hall and his agent? Seriously, what good had Terry Boss done for his client or the ballclub? None. If I were the Brews I would go to the press and say now there is no way in hell we are trading TERRY BOSS' client. Time for the teams to take the power back from the agents.

Does Mr Boss believe that Bill Hall is going to get a bigger and better contract in 2010 than what he will be receiving the next two years? Bill worked his butt off for a year and a half to scrape out the millions of $$, but his payday came and went. His performance has decreased alarmingly the past two years (and he shouldn't blame it on the position switching, because his best offensive production occurred when he was a super utility guy). Maybe the pending Lasik will help Bill "Wiping My Eye in the Batters Box" Hall. It seems to have helped Kendall find some semblance of consistency. I say he gets it done during the All Star break.

[joepepsi]

Now you either have to put him in the 7th spot and if he is getting on he will just be a double play candidate with Kendall batting in the 8th spot.

 

Dusty, is that you?

Oh Lord, that was funny! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

 

It would be fun to see what Dillon could do with regular play, but I think the best production possibility lies in the current Hall/Branyan platoon. The fact is Hall's current avg/obp/slg isn't far off from his 2007 rates. Or his 2004. It's quite likely this is his true level of performance and his 05-06 years were his peak. The guy's basically a hacker with pretty good power for an infielder. Sort of like Deivi Cruz, but better. These types tend to have short careers as everyday players.