Report: Hall's agent requests trade- Latest: Melvin "Not really motivated" to move him

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

It's easy to understand Hall's frustration. This makes the 2nd year in a row he has changed positions to accomodate the team, struggled offensively - but not been the only player to struggle offensively, and then he's been the first player to lose playing time as a result. From where he sits, why did Geoff Jenkins have such a long leash last year? Why does J.J. Hardy get a pass this year?

 

It's also easy to understand the team's position. Russell Branyan is having a career year in AAA, the offense as a whole is struggling, changes are needed, and Hall is the most obvious candidate to ride the pine. Can't really move him now, his value is about the lowest it could possibly be.

 

I would never say that I could foresee this kind of outcome for Hall, but I have always suspected that 2006 would be a career year for him. He did nothing - nothing at all - in the minors. It is very rare for a player to emerge as a superstar with minor league numbers as terrible as Hall's were. This is the drum that Joe Sheehan was banging over at BP all year in 2006 when Hall was the best hitter on the team. The vindication of this perspective has been a long time in coming, but it seems like it's finally here.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

There are some things in this thread I just don't understand-

 

1) What in Russell Branyan's career makes people think he will be able to produce consistently. He wasn't good enough three or four years ago. Why now?

2) What in Joe Dillon's career makes people think he's capable of more than starting Sunday JV games and pinch hitting. He is what he is. There's a reason he bounced around the minors forever, then retired before making the show.

3) Why people would be willing to trade Laporta when it's more than likely Fielder will be unsignable down the line.

4) Why people would be willing to trade Gamel when it's still not clear that Weeks or Hardy will be able to hit enough, or if they'll be able to sign both of them long term.

 

Hang on to Hall until there's a good RH bat who can step in defensively (not Dillon). A Branyan/Dillon platoon scares the heck out of me. I can't imagine either being able to perform at a high level consistently, because neither ever have. Just because a guy "non-demand demands" a trade doesn't place the obligation on the team. The situation they have now works; when Branyan eventually becomes himself, drops to .230, and K's 3 times a game, Billy can step in again.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Marc - I agree with your points, but the Brewers options are limited if Hall is unwilling to platoon. The fact is that Hall has no right to complain about a platoon right now. I'd rather have a Dillon/Branyan platoon than a Branyan/guy who wants out platoon.

 

B/D doesn't scare me any more than B/H. Hall is not any better than either of those guys. He hasn't been for a while now.

[southpaw121505]

Yesterday at the game I noticed Hall to be one of the first people to congratulate Branyan for his homer. I thought maybe Billy was starting to accept his role, guess not.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

Brewers options are limited if Hall is unwilling to platoon.

Why? Will he cross his name of the lineup card? Will he sit at the end of the bench and pout? Fact is he's gonna play in a platoon as long as he's here. I just can't see Billy pulling a Sheffield and tanking it.

 

What is more true is that Billy limited his options by having his agent talk to Haudricourt. Now that this is out there, his trade value took a dive. And he's got a point about others getting more chances (cough RICKIE cough).

[sbrylski]

1) What in Russell Branyan's career makes people think he will be able to produce consistently. He wasn't good enough three or four years ago. Why now?

 

In 2005, the Muscle played an integral role in a 3B platoon that combined for the top 3B production in the NL that season. Nobody's suggesting if we trot him out there everyday he will put up All-Star production, but he can be an asset to our team, no doubt. Career .809 OPS, .819 vRHP, is generally fine out of half a platoon.

 

2) What in Joe Dillon's career makes people think he's capable of more than starting Sunday JV games and pinch hitting. He is what he is. There's a reason he bounced around the minors forever, then retired before making the show.

 

He's crushed AAA pitching forever, and now that he's finally got a chance, he's started off his big league career quite well, especially vLHP. Small sample, but I don't know why we couldn't be a little optimistic on an unproven guy here, a lot of good signs he'll succeed.

 

 

Dillon+Branyan>=Bill Hall, IMO

 

Side note:

Branyan=God, right?

Branyan+Dillon

Does it follow that Dillon is the anti-Christ?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Do you really want to put a guy in the field who doesn't want to play for your club? I don't. At some point his play will become Sheffield-esque, even if he's not doing it on purpose. Eventually it becomes impossible to stay motivated.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

2) What in Joe Dillon's career makes people think he's capable of more than starting Sunday JV games and pinch hitting. He is what he is. There's a reason he bounced around the minors forever, then retired before making the show.

 

He's crushed AAA pitching forever, and now that he's finally got a chance, he's started off his big league career quite well, especially vLHP. Small sample, but I don't know why we couldn't be a little optimistic on an unproven guy here, a lot of good signs he'll succeed.

This is the type of thinking I hope we are past as an organization. A lot of guys hit minor league pitching, and Dillon has next to no pop in his bat. They need that out of a 3B platoon. I guess I'm not thrilled with the idea of more "unproven guys" playing important roles on what is supposed to be a contending team. We've had enough of those.

[owbc]

I've always been a big Bill Hall fan. I know he wasn't a big prospect, but he could play all over the field and put up solid offensive numbers. He hit to the opposite field (or at least he used to). He never complained when he was forced to move positions several times. He's clearly not as good as his 2006 numbers, but why fault him for that?

 

I also don't think a Branyan/Dillon platoon is the solution. Why should I believe that Dillon will continue his success? Between this year and last, Joe Dillon has 35 hits with the Brewers and about 1/6 of a season worth of at bats. If we're going to be in a playoff chase, do we really have time to find out if Dillon is going to keep it up. He looks like he has a great approach, but so did Brady Clark, it doesn't guarantee long term success.

 

Bill Hall has been successful for season after season against lefties. He is a solid defender. He is under contract. We're not going to get anything decent in return without packaging a good prospect. Bill Hall would be a better shortstop than JJ Hardy or a better 2B than Rickie Weeks, assuming neither of them decide to wake up and play like last year. Weeks has a history of injuries, what happens if we trade Hall and he goes down?

 

Just play him in the platoon. He doesn't have a choice. It doesn't say in his contract that he has to start. We can't risk and injury or 3TO falling back to earth.

[pebadger]

There can be a significant distinction between wanting a trade and not wanting to "play for the club" which currently holds your rights. The distinction lies in whether you want to primarlily be a professional ball player or primarily a professional self-promoter. If Billy looks like he's tanking, it will hurt him greatly. He can't get away with that like Sheffield could.

[DHonks]

we could trade Hall, offer Cirillo a chance to play in AAA with the chance to contribute in a few months, etc. I'm half-kidding with that

 

Seriously, what teams need a SS? Rockies, Giants, D-Rays, Twins?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm not saying Hall will tank it, I'm saying that there's a point where it becomes difficult to give it your best when you're unhappy. If he really becomes that miserable, the tanking eventually becomes subconscious.

[sbrylski]

This is the type of thinking I hope we are past as an organization. A lot of guys hit minor league pitching, and Dillon has next to no pop in his bat. They need that out of a 3B platoon.

 

Dillon hit 20 HR in 94 games last year in AAA. Maybe he's not an Aramis, but he's not TGJ either.

 

I guess I'm not thrilled with the idea of more "unproven guys" playing important roles on what is supposed to be a contending team. We've had enough of those.

 

Well, I'm just trying to be optimistic with the players we have. What's your solution?

[Weirdos19]

Remember, there is no other position for Billy other than 3B here. We cannot afford a utility player that makes 8.6mil in 2010.

 

If we could land a RH platoon 3B outside of a Hall trade, I'd be for moving Billy.

 

Say we traded Gwynn for Garciaparra and Hall for a Giants reliever. Could there be a fit then?

[bobskube]

Where's my old buddy BilyHallFan?

 

God, I'm gonna miss those battles. Bill Hall does still have a place here as a platoon player and I know he would succeed. However, his big ego may not let that happen.

[TooLiveBrew]

There's a reason he bounced around the minors forever, then retired before making the show.

 

Yeah, stupid severe back injuries! Dillon sucks because he was seriously injured once upon a time! It'd be nice to get the facts straight. Dillon is a very serviceable RH bat, and really isn't this vast dropoff from Hall that people are trying to paint him as. Especially when you consider that Dillon can actually handle an at-bat against righties, Hall's value to the Brewers needs to be seriously re-evaluated. It's not that I think the Brewers are a better team without Hall... it's that we just aren't weakened that much if he's gone. If Hall were the righty-masher & Branyan were the lefty-killer, then this is a different conversation. But things are the way they are.

 

 

But if Branyan is struggling at the plate you don't have a player who can put in against a RHP where you would be confident in getting some success from them. Putting Dillon in place of Branyan is a huge drop off in production compared to Hall replacing Branyan.

 

No, it isn't. Hall has been nothing short of garbage against righties for more than just this season. The lack of change in Bill's approach is one decent indicator of his limitations as a hitter. Joe Dillon does not mash lefties quite as well as Hall. But since the LHP-side of a platoon is the vast minority of PA, the Brewers wouldn't really be hurt much (if at all) by going with Dillon over Hall.

[Dragonbait]

Another note on Dillon, he played ALL those AAA seasons with a back injury.. It wasnt til after he retired that he got his back fixed.

[LouisEly]

Yesterday at the game I noticed Hall to be one of the first people to congratulate Branyan for his homer. I thought maybe Billy was starting to accept his role

 

Funny how winning seems to cure a lot of problems. I understand his need to vent his frustration... it's better to do that than to keep it bottled up. Hopefully if the Brewers can continue on their hot streak and go 20-9 in June suddenly Bill will find his happy place, and they can deal with it this offseason. The team needs Hall; as others said, if Hardy or Weeks goes down for an extended period of time they will really need Hall. Hopefully Cameron and Counsell can have a talk with him in private and convince him of this.

 

Dillon has next to no pop in his bat

 

Cirillo didn't have a lot of pop in his bat either, but he put a lot of balls in play that found holes, had good plate discipline, and made a decent platoon guy later in his career. A lot of people around here called for his return the last two years also. Dillon is just as good at age 32 as Cirillo was.

[nate82]

No, it isn't. Hall has been nothing short of garbage against righties for more than just this season. The lack of change in Bill's approach is one decent indicator of his limitations as a hitter. Joe Dillon does not mash lefties quite as well as Hall. But since the LHP-side of a platoon is the vast minority of PA, the Brewers wouldn't really be hurt much (if at all) by going with Dillon over Hall.

So Dillon's 1 double against lefties so far this season is good enough? The power numbers for Dillon is horrible flat out horrible. He has no power when hitting off MLB type pitchers. He has yet to even show any power at all that he showed in the minors. It has been 2 years of this. On the other hand you have a proven player in Bill Hall who can hit lefties and with power. That is a huge drop off. I don't care what someone does in the minors. Dillon has not shown that he is capable of doing what he did in the minors.

 

Not to mention that Hall is better on defense at 3B than Dillon. Hall has a better arm and has more range than Dillon. These same arguments have come up when talking about Brady Clark, Podsednik, and other former Brewers that were just like Dillon. He is nothing but a AAAA type of a player.

 

Going from Hall to Dillon is a huge drop off in production.

[Dragonbait]

I feel Dillon has more ability to make contact than Hall at this point...

 

Now I'd rather have a team of .300 hitters with average power then a team of .200 hitters that swing for the fences.

[Marc Newfield of Dreams]

What's your solution?

My solution is:

1) Be open to offers, but don't actively try to trade him unless there's a better RH option than Hall. Again, just because he demanded, but didn't formally demand a trade doesn't obligate the team to act. He's gonna play, and he's gonna play hard. Billy is no Sheffield, we've seen that many times. I guess I don't understand the rush in people wanting to trade him.

 

2) Do not trade LaPorta under any conditions (again, the Prince factor- he's a huge insurance policy). ONLY package Gamel if it is a legit, big time starting pitcher.

 

3) Wait until Branyan cools down. Start Billy full-time again. My Bill Hall shirts remain relevant and all is well again. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Defense is a big part of the equation, and I just don't see Dillon as a capable 3B. I like Dillon, but off the bench. He's a role player, and he's done well in that role. No need to mess with it right now.

[TooLiveBrew]

So Dillon's 1 double against lefties so far this season is good enough?

 

Good grief I was hoping you weren't basing your argument off just this season's PA. I hope that you aren't just being stubborn.

 

 

I don't care what someone does in the minors.

 

This speaks volumes for your argument. Were you in favor of Branyan being called up?

 

 

On the other hand you have a proven player in Bill Hall who can hit lefties

 

Proven that the role in which he provides value is less than 250 AB per season. No matter if Dillon was as bad as you're trying to claim (which he isn't), the drop-off still wouldn't be that big.

 

 

Not to mention that Hall is better on defense at 3B than Dillon.

 

Now that's just arbitrary. Hall's made some crazy plays over the course of his time in Milwaukee, and that's earned him a free pass to some extent. Imho it's relatively plain to see that when he plays D, he has the unfortunate tendency to play grounders off to his side (as opposed to getting in front of them), leading to misplays & errors. Dillon is every bit as reliable at 3B as Hall, although Joe won't be able to make certain (few & far between) plays that Hall can.

 

 

Going from Hall to Dillon is a huge drop off in production.

 

Repeating this will not make it true. Even if we take your definition of Dillon (which is basically as worst-case as it could be), I doubt the difference would even be near one win or loss.

[nate82]

Good grief I was hoping you weren't basing your argument off just this season's PA. I hope that you aren't just being stubborn.

 

Not at all but he still doesn't have any power to speak of against MLB type pitchers in the past 2 years. If his minor league numbers were that good wouldn't you see the same against MLB type pitchers? We are not seeing these numbers he is not what he is in the minors. There were players in the past for the Brewers who were great at spring training does that make them a great player? I will take the stats from a guy who has been producing at the MLB level over the one who has been producing at AAA. Again Dillon is nothing more than a AAAA type of a player.

 

Now that's just arbitrary. Hall's made some crazy plays over the course of his time in Milwaukee, and that's earned him a free pass to some extent. Imho it's relatively plain to see that when he plays D, he has the unfortunate tendency to play grounders off to his side (as opposed to getting in front of them), leading to misplays & errors. Dillon is every bit as reliable at 3B as Hall, although Joe won't be able to make certain (few & far between) plays that Hall can.

 

Dillon can't make any of the plays Hall makes and most of them are the ones that 3B are expected to make. Dillon can not make those plays. He doesn't have the arm for it.

[danzig6767]

For me, how i'd handle this situation would be this

 

1. Tell Bill Hall to immediately end his talking to the media about trades, that includes his agent. It does absolutely no good for the team or Bill Hall's desire to be traded.

 

2. Tell Hall if he shuts up/also his agent, the team will consider looking into any possible trades, but only if he promises to always play hard and be 100% a team player during the process.

 

3. Let Hall know that trades often don't happen easily or quickly and that the team will only trade him if the deal makes sense for the team, they won't trade him just to make Bill happy.

 

4. Lastly, tell Billy that while the team will look into any interest in him around the league, it's by no mean a guarantee that a trade could be made anytime soon or at all this year that makes sense for the team. If during this time Hall acts in any sort of insubordinate or anti-team fashion, he'll even lose his part of the platoon and become basically a pinch hitter.

[Dragonbait]

Your agrument about Dillon in AAA as opposed to the majors... Could it be he was a starter in AAA and only a back-up so he's seen less PA?

Granted the level of pitching in the majors is much better, but he hits for a better AVG so that makes up for the lack of power.