Hart or Braun for centerfield?

[mothershipconnection]

As great as it's been to see Braun transition into a decent outfielder, I'd be WAY more comfortable using Hart in center at this point. I'd prefer to give the guy a chance to play acceptable D in a position he's comfortable in rather than putting him back into position to be a butcher.

[Brian the Automator]

As great as it's been to see Braun transition into a decent outfielder, I'd be WAY more comfortable using Hart in center at this point. I'd prefer to give the guy a chance to play acceptable D in a position he's comfortable in rather than putting him back into position to be a butcher.

I think they should employ a volleyball-esque shift after each inning, to keep them as flexible as possible.

[sbrylski]

I would theorize that CF isn't really more difficult to play (other than the speed requirement noted above), but its relative importance is why the best defenders play the position, raising what is then the average level of skill for the position, and making it harder to be considered good at it. So would Braun be just as good in CF as in LF? Quite possibly, but relative to the other CFers in the league he might not stack up.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

The current generation of fielding metrics is far from perfect, but it's hard to argue that it tells us less than the traditional defensive stats. Just because Braun hasn't been charged with an error yet doesn't mean he's doing well out there. A quick look at the Hardball Times defensive numbers shows that Braun has been pretty bad:

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=zone_rating&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2008&league_filter%5B%5D=2&pos_filter%5B%5D=7&Submit=Submit

 

I always look at OOZ plays in addition to RZR, because RZR does nothing to account for defensive shifts. Braun leads NL LFs in innings, so his 17 OOZ plays are actually a little less impressive than they initially appear. For balls in zone, his RZR places him right between Adam Dunn and Pat Burrell. All things considered, this isn't so bad - it's the first time he's ever played the position and he's holding his own with the veteran bat-only guys whose teams hide them in LF. But let's not pretend he's been a revelation out there just because he hasn't made a blunder of the peculiar, narrow sort that's required before modern official scorers will charge an error.

 

I've watched something like 90% of the games, and my eyes agree with the fancy numbers - he takes very strange routes to balls and doesn't seem to get very good jumps. All of that should improve, and his speed and his arm are such that he I imagine he'll eventually be better than average in LF. After all, with players like Dunn, Burrell, and Carlos Lee as your peers, "better than average" doesn't take much.

 

Hart's RF performance is pretty middle of the pack this year (below avg RZR, above avg OOZ), but small sample warnings are every bit as valid for defensive numbers as offensive numbers, and he was among the better RFs last year. He's a much better option to play CF than Braun next year, if LaPorta is your third OF.

 

One other note - "no sale" on the argument that Hart's arm plays better in RF. John Walsh has done some excellent research in this area, and Hart had among the worst results for all RF in 2007. His arm is just ok; it'll play in CF, but doesn't stand up against the best OF arms in the game who share his current position:

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/best-outfield-arms-of-2007/

 

I don't know anything about LaPorta's arm. Braun's is pretty good though, so unless LaPorta has a cannon that no scouts have so far noticed and raved about, I think the best defensive configuration in the OF would be:

 

LF: LaPorta

CF: Hart

RF: Braun

 

Seems like the Brewers want LaPorta in RF, based on them playing him there in Huntsville. I suppose that's fine - it's hard for me to imagine having them backwards costing the team more than a 10 - 15 runs over a whole season, even if I'm right and Braun's arm would be better than LaPorta's in RF.

 

You'd be looking at probably the very best offensive and very worst defensive OF in the majors, no matter how you arrange them.

 

(Edited for grammatical reasons and to fix the links)

[logan82]

I just hope they keep Cameron around next year to let Braun gain a little more experience before trying to make him change postions again next year.

 

Edt: If I had to chose between Hart and Braun right now I would say Hart because of his experience. I would prefer neither in CF unless Baun or Hart becomes well above average in a corner OF position. I think both have the athletic ability to play CF.

[rluzinski]

The only thing that's really easier about it is the fact that there's less ground to cover.

 

The fact that Chers have to cover more ground is exactly why teams put their best outfield defender there. They need to have speed AND instinct to get good jumps because they are expected to make outs over a significantly larger area. It's why their defensive metrics are superior to corner outfielders and it's why the average CFer's offensive numbers can't touch an average corner outfielders. More is asked from them defensively and for good reason.

 

Here's a short article related to this topic:

 

http://ussmariner.com/2007/07/26/outfield-defense/

 

Trust me, Robin Yount thinking CF was easier is not typical.

[kuffdaddy]

Having played Centerfield through college, I can attest to the fact that it is the easiest defensive outfield position to play provided you have 'outfield speed'.

 

Speed is a relative term when it comes to the outfielders...I've seen some really 'fast' people that cannot read a ball off of a bat and have been terrible outfielders as a result, but others who don't have great speed but can get a beat on the ball are good outfielders. Ideally you want your centerfielder to have both.

 

What I've seen of Braun so far in left is that he can cover some ground when he makes his decision on the ball, but is slow to do that. That is typical of people who lack experience in the outfield.

 

My thought for next year is that Braun will stay in left, Hart will shift to center, and LaPorta will be the RF. All goes out the window if Prince is dealt for the arm that they will need for the rotation if Sheets walks at year's end.

[Fatter than Joey]

Tony Gwynn Jr will be our center fielder next year

 

When did we become Nashville.

 

Do you think CF is a more demanding position than LF, from a pure skill point of view?

 

I don't think there is a question about it.

 

I would rather see Braun in RF over Hart, because I think he has a better arm.

[southpaw121505]

I have to agree with Brian on the slice. I played CF and RF in hs and LF and CF in college. I have always preferred to play center because it's just see the ball, go get the ball. In LF you can break to the gap if you don't play the slice right, and it will end up towards the line. The slice is WAY worse on a corner. Obviously you have to have good speed to play center because you have to cover more ground to the wall and both sides.

 

I agree with Kuff about the speed issue. Speed and range are two different things. Speed helps once you are in full stride. But, the most important thing is your very first step, and how soon you read where the ball will be to make that step(your jump). Speed and your jump factor into your range. You need to be awesome at one to play center, or pretty good at both. I think both Braun and Hart have the speed to play center, but neither have great instincts. Tough call. I'd go Braun actually since he still is so new to the outfield I tend to agree that there is more room for improvement with him.

[davego]

I say get the best 3 bats out there and take our chances (with in reason!). I assume that will be Laporta, Hart and Braun for 09.

[tigerbrew]

Having played Centerfield through college, I can attest to the fact that it is the easiest defensive outfield position to play provided you have 'outfield speed'.

In terms of speed, Hart is probably the fastest guy on the team. In terms of experience, Hart is the more seasoned outfielder including CF. I guess the more likely choice in CF would be Hart, but I'd be interested to try Braun out in CF in next's spring training and see how he does.

 

Currently, I'm leaning to shifting Hart to CF, Braun to RF and LaPorta to LF. I think this could be a great offensive outfield.

[jhart05]

But I REALLY REALLY like the TGJ in CF

 

 

JMO, but I believe what many people like is the idea of Gwynn in CF, being something close to what his father was.

I mean, he does look the part. He's fast, good glove, slap hitter, small like a traditional "leadoff hitter", he has the name, the genes if you will, but...he is not his Dad.

 

He is a career 4th OF, or maybe a starter on a poor team. Which isn't going to be a bad career for the guy.

 

Let the Padres find that out.

[rluzinski]

So, provided a player has superior speed and a a superior ability to read balls off the bat, CF is easier. Apparently, those skills are harder to come by than finding a guy who can handle a slice, because the pool of players who can handle CF is obviously much smaller in the majors. Personally, I have no doubt that any decent CF would be even better in the corner.

[southpaw121505]

Well yeah because anyone athletic enough to play cf can likely make up for poor jumps more often with speed while playing a corner. In center your margin for error on your jump is much smaller because you have to cover so much more ground behind you. I'm just saying what I've experienced, it was way easier for ME to read the ball and get a good jump in center. CF is still the more valued defensive spot because of the extra ground you have to cover in deep center and power alleys as opposed to down the line when it's 330ish and not 400+

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Russ is right guys. It's more than speed in CF. You have to get good jumps and Braun gets horrible ones right now in LF. If he does that in LF how can we expect him to be a CF in 2009? I'd say 2010 would be the earliest possible time Braun could play CF and that's best case scenario. He still has a lot to learn out there and LF is the perfect place for him to be doing that.

[sbrylski]

Personally, I have no doubt that any decent CF would be even better in the corner.

 

But that's the reason they are CFers, because they are better at playing the OF, so you play them at the most important position. I think that's two different things.

 

Carlos Lee doesn't suddenly become worse at fielding flyballs because he's standing in CF, but you don't want him playing there. So "harder," I'd say not much. I'm splitting hairs probably, but I'd say "more demanding/important," hence Junior Goldglove roaming the middle and Stumble Lumberking hiding in left.

[rluzinski]

I'd define "harder" as a skill that less people possess. Less players can play CF at an acceptable level, so it's harder. I don't know how else you can define it.

[LouisEly]

Braun would be interesting in CF and would solve a lot of logjam problems, but I think he needs a couple of years of playing OF in general before transitioning there. I will say that, having personally played every position on the diamond at some point in a game growing up, that I felt the toughest positions were C and CF. Ironically I could catch fairly well and played there a lot, but I sucked as a CF - I felt it was a lot harder to judge balls coming straight at you than at the corner OF positions.

 

Interesting that Cameron has an option year next year and Brantley is at AA. I tend to think that Cameron will be back and that LaPorta will start next year in AAA but come the end of May, a la Braun, LaPorta prolly will not still be in AAA. If LaPorta makes the jump and Cameron isn't back, I could see Braun-Hart-LaPorta as your starters, with TGJ or Kapler coming in as a defensive replacement in the 8th/9th with Hart sliding over to RF or LF.

 

They may need the $10M that Cameron is due next year to sign Sheets, in which case I think your 2009 OF is Braun in LF and then some combination of Hart/TGJ/Kapler in CF and Hart/LaPorta in RF.

[Dragonbait]

"They may need the $10M that Cameron is due next year to sign Sheets, in which case I think your 2009 OF is Braun in LF and then some combination of Hart/TGJ/Kapler in CF and Hart/LaPorta in RF. "

 

 

I could live with either of those.

[FVBrewerFan]

As I've said, Braun simply can not play CF next year, there's just no way. I read the debate about skills necessary to play there, and it was a good discussion. First, yes Braun has speed. But he doesn't have the type of recovery speed needed if you misjudge a ball initially. In LF, if you don't get a good jump in rattles in the corner and turns into a double. A lot of those balls would be doubles anyhow. In CF, if you make a mistake it's a gapper that turns a single into a double or triple.

 

Very simply, Braun doesn't react immediately to the ball off the bat. Until he can do that, he can't play CF.

[Thurston Fluff]

I'd define "harder" as a skill that less people possess. Less players can play CF at an acceptable level, so it's harder. I don't know how else you can define it.

 

Speed is something you either have or don't. So it may be a samller group of people capable of playing center due to the lack of speed but still be easier for those who do have speed to play center. I would assume those who do have speed but can't play center very well end up as corner OF because they cause less damage there.

[JJHardy7]

But he doesn't have the type of recovery speed needed if you misjudge a ball initially.

 

Isn't it too early to come to that conclusion? He's only been playing the OF for a few months. If he gets better in the outfield at reacting to balls of the bat that will improve his recovery speed and then Braun has an entire off-season to hone his skills in the OF.

 

I think the more important matter is what would make the OF the best for the Brewers as a whole. From what I've seen those that don't like Braun's defense are going to hate LaPorta's defense and his current range. I do think though that LaPorta can improve and I'm not going to write him off. I think if LaPorta is in Milwaukee next year it will be a matter of hiding him in the OF should he play there. Braun and Hart are quite a ways ahead of LaPorta IMO.

[Fatter than Joey]

Look at it this way.

 

Let's say we attached a bunch of ankle weights to Cameron, so he had the exact same speed as Carlos Lee.

 

Who would you rather have playing CF?

[Chio151]

I do have this mental dream of the following lineup in the coming years

 

1 - Rickie Weeks - 2B

2 - Mat Gamel - 3B

3 - Ryan Braun - LF

4 - Prince Fielder - 1B

5 - Matt LaPorta - RF

6 - Corey Hart - CF

7 - JJ Hardy / Escobar - SS

8 - Angel Salome / LuCroy - C

9 - Pitcher

 

That's just straight cash money offensively.

[FVBrewerFan]

If Weeks ever gets his OBP over .100, sure. And I would flip Hart and Gamel. Just remember the line-up the Brewers have right now is almost exactly the one everyone here fantasized about for years. Shows you it never goes exactly according to plan.