Haudricort on the D-List on 5/30/08 (McClung/Weaver discussion)

[Gopher74]

He's shown signs... And as such, I'd like to see McClung get a couple more starts.

 

What is it that you've liked so far... or what is it that you feel is encouraging going forward? I personally want to be encouraged by his first start, but it came against WAS, so I have a hard time feeling as good about that as I want to.

That he has really good stuff and he's pitched really well most of the year. You have to look at the rest of my post to put it in context, but we don't have the Blue Jays staff where we're talking about McClung taking someone's spot. We're desperately searching for someone who can be very good. We're all willing to throw McClung under the bus in favor of who? Weaver? A near 7 ERA in AAA. Villanueva? Ok, maybe, but still a near 7 ERA as a starter. Who else?

 

So again, what's encouraging is that he's thrown the ball really well in terms of velocity and movement, he's been far more efficient as a starter, he's got fantastic stuff, and.....we don't have anything better, so I'm simply hoping that he's going to be really good to give this team SOME chance.

 

[logan82]

Gopher74 wrote:

he's got fantastic stuff,

So does Turnbow, but neither has good enough command that they should be given anything besides mop up innings.

[hauser42]

Weaver is a veteran arm who they are hoping can turn into another Suppan to eat innings and keep the team in the game till the 6/7 inning.

 

C-Vill needs to get better if he is going to be a starter. Right now he is in a good spot for himself in the pen, someone posted maybe he could close and that would not shock me down the road. Not sure his stuff is good enough to get threw the lineup two /three times a game.

[rluzinski]

I don't think Haudricourt ever knows what's going on. He's always saying goofy things that he pretends could be inside information but are really just his silly guesses.

 

As for McClung... he's had a horrible major league career so far. What he's done in a couple of short starts tells us almost nothing about what to expect going forward. I certainly don't see how anything about his last start was promising, though.

[dvoiss]

Weaver is a veteran arm who they are hoping can turn into another Suppan to eat innings and keep the team in the game till the 6/7 inning.

I hate to repeat myself but until he proves he can get AAA hitters out he has no business pitching in Milwaukee.

[hauser42]

Weaver is a veteran arm who they are hoping can turn into another Suppan to eat innings and keep the team in the game till the 6/7 inning.

I hate to repeat myself but until he proves he can get AAA hitters out he has no business pitching in Milwaukee.

We have sent guys out there that have proven they can not get out big league hitters and Weaver has proven he can get guys out in the past. All I am saying is that he is an option that this team has too look at.

[rluzinski]

We have sent guys out there that have proven they can not get out big league hitters and Weaver has proven he can get guys out in the past. All I am saying is that he is an option that this team has too look at.

 

They are looking at it from AAA and it doesn't look good.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Again, isn't Mark DiFelice an option? If he's not, I'm still waiting to hear why not.

This is like going to the bar and your options for girls to take home are Oprah, Rosie O'Donnell and Star Jones (No offense, Dwayne Wade) You can try DeFelice, you can try McClung, you can try all these subpar pitchers. Bottom line is that if we don't get really lucky with one of these guys and they pitch over their head, we are going to be rooting against the Cubs in October instead of rooting our Brewers on.

[Gopher74]

Gopher74 wrote:

he's got fantastic stuff,

So does Turnbow, but neither has good enough command that they should be given anything besides mop up innings.

So what, we throw our hands up in the air and just give up? I'm serious because who are our other options? And honestly, I get that we want to keep the posts short by not throwing in the whole quote, but I hate this because it comes off as me being some naive idiots who thinks that he's GOING to be really good because he's got good stuff. I stated, and I made a point to state in my post several times that if he does become a good pitcher, it's going to be going against what he's shown most of his career thus far, but the thing that he gives us that Turnbow also gave us is the possibility of something good. I'd take that possibility over the absolute doom that lies with the other options.

 

I suppose I also could have pointed out that by bringing up Turnbow, you prove my point very clearly. For one season Turnbow found a way to be great. I don't see how we have a chance unless someone else pulls a season like that out of their rear and McClung is one of the guys who at least MAY be able to do that.

 

I don't know though if I should start ever post about McClung by saying that he's had poor control because that's what everyone keeps saying even well after it's been conceded that he's had poor control thus far in his career.

[Gopher74]

This is like going to the bar and your options for girls to take home are Oprah, Rosie O'Donnell and Star Jones (No offense, Dwayne Wade) You can try DeFelice, you can try McClung, you can try all these subpar pitchers.

Yea, but at least the Seth McClung in this analogy is a girl who you could see being pretty good looking if she dropped about 30 pounds.

 

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Why do we think Mark DiFelice is subpar? That's my basic question. Is it because he's 31 and has never had major league success? That's the best reason I've heard so far (other threads), and it isn't a very good one. Is it because his fastball doesn't light up a radar gun? True, it's tough to name RHP with sub 85 mph fastball velocities who've had sustained success in the majors, but at least a part of the reason why that's true is a systematic belief that it's impossible for such pitchers to have major league success. Whether you feel that's a valid belief or not is (I think) a matter of opinion. His minor league dominance over the past 1 1/3 seasons is reason enough for me to want to see what he can do.

 

I do agree with Rillo's fundamental point, however. It is pretty depressing that these are our choices, and that the best I can do is try to take a pie in the sky position on Mark DiFelice's major league prospects in order to sustain any hope about the bottom of the rotation. The best orthodox solution is still probably going back to Villaneuva, but I'm starting to think we maybe oughta treat him as a quality short reliever we've developed, rather than hoping that he turns out to be a decent starter.

 

Edit: For the McClung supporters, I will say that my Mark DiFelice optimism probably isn't substantially less unreasonable than the pro-McClung "at least he throws 95 mph" line of thinking. That's largely a matter of taste. I like minor league peripherals more than radar gun readings, hence my preference for DiFelice.

[Gopher74]

I think the combination of being 31 and never having pitched in the big leagues, and having very, very average(to be generous) stuff would lead to your answer.

 

There are dozens of guys who can get AAA hitters out because they know hot to pitch, but aren't going to get big league hitters out. When you throw 85 MPH, how can you ever get people out on the days when you don't have your "good" stuff?

 

Given the choice between the guy who throws 95 and has control issues and the guy who throws 85 with no control issues, I'll still take the 95 because at least he might figure it out. You can't "figure out" decent velocity and if you can't throw the ball hard enough to make them respect your fastball, what good are your secondary pitches going to do?

[BrewCrewForever]

I'm all for McClung getting at least one more start if not two. He pitched very well against Washington. Yeah he walked guys and gave up the 3-run HR on Thursday but I still think he derserves another shot or two. I don't think there is any doubt if he has control he can be a good starting pitcher, good fastball, curve and a change. But if he isn't getting the curve over and he has to throw first pitch fastballs all the time he will get rocked. If he does not impress over the next two starts see what Weaver has. Villa is an option but I really prefer him out of the pen.

[endaround]

Of course the Brewers just got dominated by an old rookie who throws 85 with no control issues.

[Fatter than Joey]

And honestly, I get that we want to keep the posts short by not throwing in the whole quote, but I hate this because it comes off as me being some naive idiots who thinks that he's GOING to be really good because he's got good stuff.

 

Well you did indicate McClung could be a front/middle rotation guy.

 

Given the choice between the guy who throws 95 and has control issues and the guy who throws 85 with no control issues, I'll still take the 95 because at least he might figure it out.

 

The Brewers right now could use a couple of guys who have no control issues regardless of their velocity. McClung isn't likely to be throwing much at 95MPH as a starter, maybe as a reliever, but probably not as a starter.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

DiFelice reached 89 on the gun today in the 9th. Apparantly, he has a straight fastball in addition to the cutter, which is the 83 mph pitch. He either hadn't used it or I hadn't noticed it before today. That seals it for me. Only reason I was tempering my optimism upthread is because I couldn't think of a single useful RHP in (radar gun measured) major league history who worked entirely below 85 (only exceptions being knuckleballers, which DiFelice is not). Even with that problem, I still preferred him to McClung and Weaver.

 

After today, I know that I'm not hoping for a singularity. This team is nuts if they don't give DiFelice a shot at starting. In fact, given that they must've known he can get his straight fastball into the high 80s all along, they're already nuts for trying McClung first.

 

Believing that McClung will become a quality starter requires a total suspension of disbelief with respect to everything I know about projecting pitcher performance. Believing that DiFelice can succeed just requires admitting to oneself that lots and lots of pitchers are effective without 90 mph fastballs. More lefties than righties, but there are certainly a bunch of righties too.

[JohnBriggs12]

The guy who deserves first shot at McClung spot is Villanueva. He's no worse than the 4th best starter they have. He was removed after 9 starts where his ERA exceeded 6. His previous 12 major league starts he posted a 3.01 ERA. His true ability is probably halfway between the 6 and 3 or 4.50. McClung went into this season with 37 career starts and career ERA as a starter above 6. Even if he improves, it's a stretch to see him with an ERA below 5 over any significant time.

[TooLiveBrew]

Villy & DiFelice are the two best candidates for that spot. I can't even begin to express how short-sighted I think it was to believe McClung would be any different as a SP than he's been as a RP. Of course, given that Seth's first start went well, it just reinforced the small sample decision even more, unfortunately.

 

I agree with JB that Villy's 'true talent' level lies near the 4.50 ERA range. As many others have pointed out before me, Carlos is basically the same pitcher as Bush in terms of talent. Just as Bush has regressed to the mean, it's only reasonable to forecast the same for Villy.