Haudricort on the D-List on 5/30/08 (McClung/Weaver discussion)

[endaround]

Caught the end of Haudricort being interviewed today. He mentioned that he thinks the Brewers have been dying to bring Weaver up and are waiting for at least a mediocre result to be able to do so. So that leaves me with two options: 1) Haudricort like most media have hear of Weaver so he must be an option and he's just thinking why sign a name if you aren't going to pitch him or 2) the Brewers really are dying to get Weaver up here. Option two scares me, sort of the scary feeling I get when people kept mentioning McClung's new improved control while not mentioning him walking 6 per 9 innings.

 

So anybody have any feeling where the truth lies?

[MickeyDavis]

They have until June 15th so at some point they might as well give him a start, even though he hasn't earned it. I'd throw him out there instead of McClung next week and see what happens.

[JJHardy7]

sort of the scary feeling I get when people kept mentioning McClung's new improved control while not mentioning him walking 6 per 9 innings.

 

Why does it seem you bring this up in almost every thread? McClung got rocked the other day, but plenty of other starting pitchers have to. I wouldn't judge his ability to start one one day and remember he wasn't "stretched" out to throw 85 pitches. I'm not saying he's great, but every time you bring up sample size and such and I think you should look at sample size here. Look at McClung's post-Tampa career since it's been stated before he's finally 100% healthy.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

I don't know. Hopefully it won't matter because he'll continue to get destroyed every single start he makes at Nashville and we never see him called up. Melvin seems to have fallen into a very bad pattern where all his scrapheap acquisitions are now washed up major league vets (kapler, mota, weaver, taverez, etc. etc.) rather than "4A" types who are at the peak of their powers but have never gotten a chance (or only barely gotten a chance and failed in a tiny sample).

 

This is probably at least party a function of increased media attention for a "contending" team. It's very unfortunate that guys like Haudricourt and nearly everyone for whom he writes would prefer the corpse of Jeff Weaver to a guy like Mark DiFelice.

[RyDogg66]

At this point he cant be much different than McClung.

[TooLiveBrew]

Why does it seem you bring this up in almost every thread? McClung got rocked the other day, but plenty of other starting pitchers have too

 

He brings it up because people were talking about how McClung hadn't walked many batters, when the reality was that he had. Seth's BB total from yesterday really shouldn't have surprised people too much (yes I know two were IBBs). He is the stereotypical power pitcher -- high Ks, high BBs.

 

McClung's troubles primarily come from allowing too many baserunners via the free pass, and yesterday was no different. Weaver has just plain been getting rocked in general, so at this point I'd just rather have Villy back in the rotation.

[endaround]

sort of the scary feeling I get when people kept mentioning McClung's new improved control while not mentioning him walking 6 per 9 innings.

 

Why does it seem you bring this up in almost every thread? McClung got rocked the other day, but plenty of other starting pitchers have to. I wouldn't judge his ability to start one one day and remember he wasn't "stretched" out to throw 85 pitches. I'm not saying he's great, but every time you bring up sample size and such and I think you should look at sample size here. Look at McClung's post-Tampa career since it's been stated before he's finally 100% healthy.

Why? Because him blowing up was entirely predictable. He didn't have good control before they put him in the rotation and one start against an impatient Nationals team doesn't change that. In 42 innings with the Brewers he has walked 24 batters, that's 5.14 per 9 innings.

 

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

at this point I'd just rather have Villy back in the rotation.

 

Agree that Villy's probably the best option. However, it would be pretty tough to put him right back in a position where he had failed so much lately after he had, what, one successful relief outing (no matter how dominant that one was)? Besides, this team needs short relievers almost as much as another back of the rotation starter. Torres I think you can believe in, as he's only rebounding from one bad year. But Shouse really needs to be a LOOGY and as far as I'm concerned, that's all we've got for decent short relievers.

 

Dillard doesn't K enough hitters to survive for long.

 

If you're snowed by the Guillermo Mota Revival, you're an easier mark at the carnival than I am.

 

The team is awfully mum about Riske and Gagne's eventual returns. Until you get at least one of those guys back, it really wouldn't seem like a bad idea to keep Villy in the pen, particularly if he keeps pitching well.

 

What I'd like to know is this: am I really the only person on these boards that wants to see Mark DiFelice get a few starts? It's increasingly seeming that I am. Before they called him up, there were quite a few people excited about his minor league numbers. Did you all just see his radar gun readings and give up on him? Is it such a crime to get tagged by David Ortiz?

[Gopher74]

At this point he cant be much different than McClung.

He can't, except for that he has. He's been much worse than McClung...in AAA.

 

Seriously? McClung gives up a 3-run HR yesterday and now he's garbage and we should start a guy in AAA with an ERA of almost 7?

 

[Blindcheck]

I think McClung can be serviceable...but Yost needs to have a quick hook with him as he did not yesterday...

 

McClung has not been stretched out and when he got into trouble in the fifth, He should have had Dillard ready to pitch 2 or 3 innings....With a guy like McClung, 5 inning is bonus, but if he gets into trouble in the third or fourth, Yost needs to get Dillard up and relieve him.

 

The one thing that drives me nuts about Yost is that he leaves starters in the game until the game is out of reach...Occasionally, they get through that extra inning, but too often, he ends up bringing in a reliever anyway that inning, just now the game is out of reach.

 

I think back to the Villanueva start against Houston...Villanueva showed some struggles the inning before the 3 back to back homers....yet Yost, keeps him in there until it is too late...In a situation like that, I think Villy should pitch until a guy gets on base or second and have a pitcher ready to go.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Seriously? McClung gives up a 3-run HR yesterday and now he's garbage and we should start a guy in AAA with an ERA of almost 7?

 

If you look back at the original post, end seems every bit as put off by the idea of calling up Jeff Weaver as he is by the fact that they ever gave Seth McClung a start, if not more.

 

Here's the thing with McClung: there might be some people basing their anti-McClung stance on one game, but you won't find any in this thread. Any reasonable sample you choose to assess (note: must look at more than just this season, must look at more than just his time with the Brewers), reveals a very simple, absolute, and totally immutable truth - Seth McClung is not a major league caliber pitcher.

[JJHardy7]

Why? Because him blowing up was entirely predictable. He didn't have good control before they put him in the rotation and one start against an impatient Nationals team doesn't change that. In 42 innings with the Brewers he has walked 24 batters, that's 5.14 per 9 innings.

 

The Brewers didn't stretch him out properly and he blew up in his last inning. That is predictable and so is your constant McClung bashing. McClung isn't an all-star pitcher, but it's fine if you think he's not a major league pitcher. I tend to disagree and believe the Brewers should've stretched him out or he should be moved back to the bullpen.

[TooLiveBrew]

But the problem is that the 6 BBs weren't lumped into that one inning. It's not his fault Yost had him pitch with a crappy strategy; it is his fault that he has serious problems locating the strike zone on a consistent basis.

[JoeHova]

McClung probably is garbage (you're talking about a guy who walked 48 guys in 77 AAA innings last season), but he has a much better chance of not being that then Weaver does. I'd rather they stick with him for now and move Villanueva back if/when McClung starts getting beat up regularly.

[dvoiss]

I don't know why anybody would think that not being able to get AAA hitters out is a sign that a pitcher is ready to face Albert Pujols. Seriously, It's the same situation we had with ZachJack. Why call him up when he can't get hitters out in Nashville? Because he's considered the best pitching prospect the Sounds have? Beacause he has big league experience? It makes no sense to me. I agree with TooLiveBrew, if it's a choice between Weaver, Villy, and McClung I say put Villy back in the rotation. He has the best chance of helping us in the future.

[JJHardy7]

But the problem is that the 6 BBs weren't lumped into that one inning. It's not his fault Yost had him pitch with a crappy strategy; it is his fault that he has serious problems locating the strike zone on a consistent basis.

 

Again I'm not saying McClung is an all-star pitcher, but 2 of those walks were intentional so I don't know if it's fair to lump them in with the other ones. McClung either has to be stretched out or moved to the bullpen. In my opinion it's as simple as that and he clearly wasn't ready to throw that many pitches and his final inning is a big indicator of that.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Again, isn't Mark DiFelice an option? If he's not, I'm still waiting to hear why not.

[FVBrewerFan]

I think they're dying to find anyone to put into the rotation, including Weaver. But the very simple fact is that this team doesn't have a shot at post season without adding a legit #2 type SP. It would have been diffiluct WITH Gallardo, now it's not possible. In fact, not only do they need to find a #2, they need Parra to magically become a legit #3. If your top 3 startrs are Sheets, Suppan, and Parra good luck passing the Cards and Cubs and staying there until October.

[TooLiveBrew]

McClung either has to be stretched out or moved to the bullpen... In my opinion it's as simple as that and he clearly wasn't ready to throw that many pitches and his final inning is a big indicator of that.

 

Do you feel his first start was an aberration that didn't have to do with being stretched out or not, and his last start had to do with that? I agree with you that anyone we want to turn into a SP should stretch out (Nashville or wherever), but I don't agree that McClung's struggle yesterday has anything to do with being stretched out or not... just that he always has (& likely always will) BB lots of batters. He threw a lot of pitches in his first start for a guy not stretched out, and he did the same in his second start. The way I take McClung not BBing a man per inning is as the less likely outcome to not BBing a man each inning he throws (from the 6-ish BB/IP stat). I think, stretched out or not, the results from his start yesterday are what should be expected more than the results from his first start (against the Nationals).

 

 

2 of those walks were intentional so I don't know if it's fair to lump them in with the other ones.

 

At least one of them was directly tied to allowing Kelly Johnson to reach 1st & steal 2nd, so I think it'd be hard to try to differentiate either way. It probably isn't fair, since Yost obviously called for the IBBs, but IBBs typically result from allowing other baserunners.

[Gopher74]

McClung probably is garbage (you're talking about a guy who walked 48 guys in 77 AAA innings last season), but he has a much better chance of not being that then Weaver does. I'd rather they stick with him for now and move Villanueva back if/when McClung starts getting beat up regularly.

Sure, he may be(I certainly won't say probably), but at this point, he at least offers the promise of being something more than a back of the rotation type guy. He at least has that chance that you could catch lightning in a bottle with him and he could put it together and go on a nice run. Hell, he's got better stuff than any other option right now. He has the stuff, just pure stuff to be a very good pitcher. He's thrown pretty well thus far this year. So at least with him, you MIGHT find a guy who really improves before your eyes. He's shown signs.

 

I brought up the idea of starting McClung about 2 weeks ago for that very reason. We need to replace Gallardo's loss, and while McClung won't do that, he can help make up for it. He may also be what Derrick Turnbow was last year as a starter. I don't know. I do know without someone exceeding what they reasonably should do based on past performance, we're dead in the water. And as such, I'd like to see McClung get a couple more starts.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

He's shown signs... And as such, I'd like to see McClung get a couple more starts.

 

What is it that you've liked so far... or what is it that you feel is encouraging going forward? I personally want to be encouraged by his first start, but it came against WAS, so I have a hard time feeling as good about that as I want to.

[dadofandrew]

McClung has pitched very well twice, both times, having 4 innings before tiring, they do not have the option to send him down.

 

Tom H is as out of it as any insider can be...saying Turnbow would be cut if he struggled in AAA, wondering why Jackson had been sent down. The Crew would love Weaver to pitch well so they can bring him up, but right now, he isn't, so it is all moot.

[JJHardy7]

Do you feel his first start was an aberration that didn't have to do with being stretched out or not, and his last start had to do with that?

 

He threw 68 pitches in his first start and towards the end looked bad and threw 85 pitches yesterday and towards the end looked bad. I find it pretty curious that he was just shifted from the bullpen to the rotation without any "stretching". He's not a guy that will usually throw 6 or 7 innings. He is at most a 5 inning guy when he starts -- and that's how the Brewers used him in Nashville also. He shouldn't be starting unless they're going to piggyback him after 60 - 70 pitches so in other words he'd be best served out of the bullpen or as a 5 inning guy followed by CV (if McClung maintained a low enough pitch count).

 

It probably isn't fair, since Yost obviously called for the IBBs, but IBBs typically result from allowing other baserunners.

 

That's a fair opinion. My problem is that McClung was doing fine until the 5th inning. And I know some bf.netters will say look at his WHIP look at the hits, but the bottom line is after 4 innings McClung gave up only 1 run. I'll take the end results like that before I throw him under the bus or complain about something. This team is going to need some luck to get into the playoffs and I'm all for it. It's not going to be pretty from most of the rotation, but I'll take giving up 1 run the first 4 innings every game...it now comes down to what to do with pitchers as they tire.

[TooLiveBrew]

He threw 68 pitches in his first start and towards the end looked bad and threw 85 pitches yesterday and towards the end looked bad. I find it pretty curious that he was just shifted from the bullpen to the rotation without any "stretching".

 

Yes, strange indeed. Thanks for clarifying.

 

 

He shouldn't be starting unless they're going to piggyback him after 60 - 70 pitches so in other words he'd be best served out of the bullpen or as a 5 inning guy followed by CV (if McClung maintained a low enough pitch count).

 

Agreed fully. I'm still puzzled why the braintrust feels/felt he's a better option than Villy. I know Carlos has had rough outings in 2008, but it seems & seemed like a small-sample kind of move to make Seth a SP.

 

 

My problem is that McClung was doing fine until the 5th inning. And I know some bf.netters will say look at his WHIP look at the hits, but the bottom line is after 4 innings McClung gave up only 1 run. I'll take the end results like that before I throw him under the bus or complain about something.

 

I can't agree with 'bottom line he only gave up 1 run' part. That's fine in the one start, but McClung (imo) allows a worrisome amount of baserunners. The chances of him giving up only one run per 4 or 5 IP with the amount of baserunners he surrenders on a regular basis is fairly slim. I'd be just fine with him as the long man &/or lower-leverage RP, but as a starter he scares me.

[endaround]

McClung did not pitch very well and tire. McClung walked 3 batters in the first four innings. Just because a line drive turned into a DP does not mean he did well, it means he got lucky.

 

In the first inning he gave up two singles and a walk.

 

In the second he got the bottom out

 

In the third he gives up three singles.

 

In the fourth he walks 2.

 

8 baserunners in 4 innings is bad.