Closer controversy: Torres vs. Gagne

[jhart05]

Gotta stay with the hot hand, or should I say "hot arm", for right now.

Take last night for example. Had Fielder not handled that ball in the hole and Hardy not been able to dive for the liner up the middle, Torres may have blown it and this thread would be titled, "Who The Heck Will Be the Closer Now!?"


Sure, of course. But, them making those types of plays instead of messing them up, are why I've had the feeling the last week or so that our team's luck is changing.

[JohnBriggs12]

I would think that Gagne's first game or two back will be a non-save situation. It will depend on how he throws when and if he gets put back in the closer's role. You can bet if he throws well, he'll get another chance.

 

Once Gagne comes back, Yost should have no excuse for overusing guys. In the long run, if they are going to have any chance to overtake the Cubs, a big part is going to be the Cubs overusing Marmol who's on pace for 100 relief innings even with Cub starters overachieving so far, and Wood who's history of arm troubles is legendary. If Yost can manage to keep his veteran bunch fresh, it bodes well.

[splitterpfj]

I absolutely subscribe to the "hot hand" theory, unless you're one of the lucky few teams with a real stud at closer.

 

Whatever happens, I don't want Gagne to be handed the closer job because "We're paying him to be the closer." He'll cost the same amount of money no matter how he's used, thanks, that doesn't mean you should let him lose games if he can't get it done.

[bigredrobbo]

One thing that has to be stated is that if Torres could have coughed up a blown save but for some great defense, then Gagne needs to get credit for not being at fault when BAD defense cost him saves.

 

I'm not advocating for Gagne as closer per se, just pointing out that the good/bad defense/luck argument works both ways.

 

That said, I'll take whomever helps this team win, even if it were Tavarez or T-Bow. If the Crew is in a save situation today, my money's on Leatherface.

[joepepsi]

I hope Gagne never pitches another inning for the Brewers.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Torres has certainly emerged as the most effective pitcher in the bullpen. Much like Marmol in Chicago, who is probably the best reliever in the division (A division that includes Cordero & Valverde) I see no reason to limit him to the ninth. If we had a one run lead with 2 on and one out in the seventh and a righty coming up, I'd sure want to see Torres. Plus, he can go two innings. You have to get to the save situation first. I agree with the posters that say use him at the highest point of need, not just the save situation.

 

The one guy who worries me a little in a save situation is Mota. He's been very effective, but has a wild streak and IMO is a little more fragile mentally. I think the pressure of the "save" may be a little much for him. With Gagne', I don't think it's a mental thing, he just may not be the same pitcher he has been in the past.

[rluzinski]

I know what you are saying -- but the balls caught by Prince and Hardy, are the sort of outs Torres induces (GBs). The thing that bugs me about Mota/Gagne are the BBs and HRs.

 

The ball Hardy flagged down was a line drive up the middle. My point though, was to not put too much weight on the results of the most recent innings worth of work. The line between a good and bad outing is very thin. Personally, I don't see any reason to think Torres is anything more than a mediocre reliever.

[endaround]

Your opinion of Torres depends a lot if you believe last season has some huge predictive value. I don't, I think its mostly injury and overuse from 2006 that killed his 2007. He pitched in 94 games in 2006, is it really surprising he had a bad 2007? Basically his HR rate exploded last year. If he can keep his HR/9 at 0.55, basically where it was most of the time in Pittsburgh he can be very good.

[brewmann04]

Well the bottom line should be what each does on the Mound.

Torres hhas been solid while Eric has Not and Prodution is what should matter.

[Invader3K]

I agree that Torres is a much more logical choice for the role of closer at this point. Gagne just has to start pitching even at an average performance level before the Brewers can even think of trying him in the close spot again.

 

Honestly, I wonder if Torres falters, if the Brewers might try Tavarez in the 9th next. I know a lot of people here would hate that, but it might be something they're forced to do.

[adambr2]

Torres is (should be) making this an extraordinarily easy decision for Yost. I hope he makes the right decision. If he cares as much about winning as he does looking our for his "kids," he will. There is absolutely no reason that Torres should not at last keep the role as long as it is winning us ballgames.

[jhart05]

Yeah, I think any "controversy" is over, for now.

 

Torres is going to have a stretch where he blows some saves thou, every closer does.

 

What happens then?

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Personally, I don't see any reason to think Torres is anything more than a mediocre reliever.

Year	Ag	Tm	Lg	W	L	G	SV	IP	H	R	ER	HR	BB	SO	HBP	WP	BFP	IBB	ERA
2004	32	PIT	NL	7	7	84	0	92	87	33	27	6	22	62	6	5	380	6	2.64
2005	33	PIT	NL	5	5	78	3	94.7	76	34	29	7	36	55	5	4	388	7	2.76
2006	34	PIT	NL	3	6	94	12	93.3	98	42	34	6	38	72	6	3	411	9	3.28
2007	35	PIT	NL	2	4	56	12	52.7	57	34	32	7	17	45	4	3	231	0	5.47
2008	36	MIL	NL	4	1	28	5	33.3	29	12	10	2	13	25	3	0	139	0	2.7

Do those look like the numbers of a mediocre reliever?

[adambr2]

He had one bad year and other than that has been mostly a good and sometimes dominating reliever who never seems to wear down.

 

We really couldn't have traded for him at a better time.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

He had one bad year and other than that has been mostly a good and sometimes dominating reliever who never seems to wear down.

 

We really couldn't have traded for him at a better time.

Exactly. If Torres is mediocre then I'd hate to hear what some other relievers are like Turnbow!

[JJHardy7]

Do those look like the numbers of a mediocre reliever?

 

I think the question was and still is what happened in 2007? Was it simply a bad year or was Torres showing his age? Pittsburgh also abused him to a certain extent and the shape of his arm was in question. It does look throughout his career he's had a "rubber" arm and hopefully that continues this year.

 

I personally don't think the closer situation is much of a debate at this point in terms of Torres vs. Gagne. I haven't heard much about the injury and my guess is that the earliest he sees the mound for Milwaukee is mid-June or after the all-star break. At that point and time the situation will have resolved itself one way or another -- i.e. Torres continues to handle the job or he doesn't and at that point someone else fills in until Gagne is back.

[FVBrewerFan]

I agree Torres remains closer until he proves otherwise. To me, the interesting question is how do you use the other relievers when Riske, Gagne, and Stetter return to the pen. Now you have those three in addition to Mota, Villy, Shouse, and even Dillard competing for the 7th and 8th innings. I know, a good problem to have. I would guess if they have 4 or 5 quality choices in the pen at that point, Villy goes back into the rotation.

 

As far as Gagne goes, I don't see the point in keeping him for garbage innings. I say you package him with TGJ, Bill Hall, and Turnbow and try to get the best starting pitcher you can in return. Even if that means you eat some of the salary for Gagne and Turnbow. Never compound a mistake by trying to prove it wasn't one.

[patrickgpe]

i have no problem taking Gagne out of the closers role. He is a 1 year rental therefore we don't have to worry about hurting his feelings. If Torres is getting the job done there is no point in putting Gagne back in there in pressure situations, unless Torres begins to struggle. The bottom line is the pen has been more effective since Gagne went down. I hope we are past the point where we have to pay our top paid players only because of his salary.

[jhart05]

The bottom line is the pen has been more effective since Gagne went down.

 

 

Well to be fair, couldn't you say this has more to do with the starting pitching going longer in games, rather than Gagne going down.

[adambr2]

I agree Torres remains closer until he proves otherwise. To me, the interesting question is how do you use the other relievers when Riske, Gagne, and Stetter return to the pen. Now you have those three in addition to Mota, Villy, Shouse, and even Dillard competing for the 7th and 8th innings. I know, a good problem to have. I would guess if they have 4 or 5 quality choices in the pen at that point, Villy goes back into the rotation.

 

As far as Gagne goes, I don't see the point in keeping him for garbage innings. I say you package him with TGJ, Bill Hall, and Turnbow and try to get the best starting pitcher you can in return. Even if that means you eat some of the salary for Gagne and Turnbow. Never compound a mistake by trying to prove it wasn't one.

 

I don't see how we get anything of real value in return for that kind of package. Gagne and Turnbow pretty much have negative value where the cost of paying them is worth more than their actual value to a team. Hall is close to that point two with his salary the next two season. TGJ has very minimal, if some value.

[TooLiveBrew]

Gagne's extended absence has to do with his wife's early trip to the hospital for their pregnancy. He's expected back with the team as soon as the family concerns are settled, and iirc Gagne & team officials have been on record saying that physically, he never needed the full 15-day DL stint -- the team did it with both his best (family) interests in mind & with roster flexibility in mind.

[JJHardy7]

Gagne's extended absence has to do with his wife's early trip to the hospital for their pregnancy. He's expected back with the team as soon as the family concerns are settled, and iirc Gagne & team officials have been on record saying that physically, he never needed the full 15-day DL stint -- the team did it with both his best (family) interests in mind & with roster flexibility in mind.

 

Has their been any word since he was originally put on the DL though that he's healthy? I have my doubts that he is healthy, but either way I'd like to see him pitch a rehab game or two.

[TooLiveBrew]

In last night's game (maybe it was Sunday's game), BA was talking about someone he spoke to with the team saying that Gagne is basically physically ready to return now. Whether or not that 'report' is accurate or to be trusted is another can of worms.

[brewtank34]

Gotta let Gagne prove that he's ready. Torres remains the closer until that time comes, and even then you may consider leaving Torres in there (given that he stays hot too). If Gagne and Torres are throwing A-games, then that could be a deadly duo.

[GoudaBrew]

Maybe this deserves its own topic (or a new headline). From SI.com....

 

Brewers' Closer? It'll Be Torres

 

I'm a little surprised, but Ned is going to stick with Torres when Gagne comes back...and Gagne agrees with the decision. I think its for the best until either of them proves a change is needed.