Fixing the Milwaukee Bucks -- Latest: Mo Williams traded (reply #290)

[homer]

Wasn't he the guy that got Chauncey Billups prior to his big years?

Considering this is his first GM job I'm going to go with a no on that.

 

Well right I know that but didn't he have a big say in personnel moves with Detroit?

[Roscoe Chill]

Well Chauncey Billups was the 3rd overall pick in the draft I believe.

[Mr QL]

Well Chauncey Billups was the 3rd overall pick in the draft I believe.

And bounced all around the league until he finally put it together in Detroit.

 

 

 

I was reading some of the realgm posts and I think a lot of people are really overreacting. Spmehow we're now the worst team ever in the NBA and have no hope for the future. In reality, we're no worse off than before the trade. We were a 30, 28, and 26 win teams with Mo as our PG. Seemed like downward trend too. Had to make a change. I'd take the shot happy no defense SG before the shot happy even less defense PG any day. Fact is, we're rebuilding. Kohl might not want people to thinking that but we are. It's going to take time to change the culture and get the right talent in here. I feel we have at least some sort of direction in the type of team we want to be now. I think we'll still be a better team than last year too.

 

Maybe draft a player like Ricky Rubio next year, who is the type of player Skiles dreams about, and I think this team could be something. I still believe Bogut will put it together too. I know alot of you guys at realgm are freaking out because he's not dropping 30/20 on every team in the Olympics but that really means nothing. Like at all. It's gunna take time.

[Diskono]

From Mo Williams press conference,

 

"Williams was asked about his defense and how he would fit into coach Mike Brown's plan.

"Defense comes with a lot of different things," Williams said. "You've got to want to do it; you've got to have the mentality to do it. I've got away from that the last few years, for whatever reason. We can go on and on for the reasons."

 

Gee, maybe now that Williams is playing with Cleveland, he'll decide to try to play some defense. Would have been nice if Mo would have wanted to try to play defense while with Milwaukee.

Like most people, I am not thrilled with the trade, but maybe Ridnour will at least try to play defense.

I think that quote alone by Williams is a big reason why he was traded.

 

http://blogs.jsonline.com/bucks/archive/2008/08/14/cavs-owner-gilbert-welcomes-mo.aspx

 

Doesn't surprise me one bit. I really do think Mo Williams is capable of being a good NBA point guard. He just - for whatever reason - chooses not to. A bit like Vince Carter saying he's not going to dunk anymore, or Kobe Bryant deciding not to shoot in the 4th quarter. I don't know if he's been trying to pad his scoring stats to earn a big contract or what, but he has had games here and there where he played like a real PG, and not a Michael Redd wannabe...so I'm pretty sure he's physically capable of it.

It's too bad for us, though. If that is indeed his attitude, a change of scenery is probably best for everyone.

 

[davego]

Maybe its just me but I thought Mo made some nice comments and took the high road on his way out of town. I respect that.

 

Howard's Blog today is (IMO) spot-on.

[Chio151]

Maybe its just me but I thought Mo made some nice comments and took the high road on his way out of town. I respect that.

 

Howard's Blog today is (IMO) spot-on.

Yeah, I actually thought Mo was very graceful in his comments. I like the guy, but he didn't fit quite right.

 

[yoshii8]

I'm excited to see the Bucks w/ pass first point guards. I enjoyed watching Sessions at the end of last season, and summer league this year, and think he is going to be good. I also like the way Luke Ridnour plays, he is a fun guy to watch, although last season seemed to be a lost season for him w/ the rebuilding Sonics. I think he will thrive with guys like Redd, Jefferson and Villanueva who are all very good scorers.

 

I think this was a good step forward for the Bucks, and I'm not going to miss Mo. His attitude was the complete opposite of the player he was in his first 2 years in Milwaukee. He went from being a guy that was all about the team w/ a great attitude, to a guy that was a locker room distraction and wanted it to be the Mo show last season. He'll be fine in Cleveland, but I really have high hopes for what Hammond is trying to do. I think and hope we will see a better brand of basketball in Milwaukee this season.

[fondybrewfan]

I still think it might serve the Bucks best to have atleast 1 more high draft pick next year. I think they could possibly be one big time player from being a legit Eastern Conference contender. Thay have a good base, but I am still worried about defense if Villanueva and Redd are on the court at the same time

[trwi7]

If they don't make the playoffs this year, this team should be blown up. Completely. Nobody should be safe. We are the fifth oldest team in the NBA right now. The four teams older than us are Dallas, New Orleans, Phoenix and San Antonio. All four of those teams are much better than us. There are a ton of other teams that are younger and better than us. We are the oldest team in the East.

 

Complete blowup if this team doesn't make the playoffs. Get as many expiring contracts, picks and youth that you can and start the rebuild.

[JJHardy7]

If they don't make the playoffs this year, this team should be blown up. Completely. Nobody should be safe. We are the fifth oldest team in the NBA right now. The four teams older than us are Dallas, New Orleans, Phoenix and San Antonio. All four of those teams are much better than us. There are a ton of other teams that are younger and better than us. We are the oldest team in the East.

 

I don't want to be mean or anything, but I think you're reaching a little bit here. The Bucks on paper might be old, but you could easily get rid of these 'old guys' that probably won't be in Milwaukee more than a season:

 

Malik Allen, Francisco Elson, Adrian Griffin, Damon Jones, and Tyronn Lue

 

I think the Bucks have a decent share of young talent/potential:

 

Joe Alexander, Andrew Bogut, Luc Mbah a Moute, Ramon Sessions, and Charlie Villanueva are all under 24 years old. I think that's a pretty solid foundation and couple that with Redd (I know he's not loved by all, but he is an Olympian) and Jefferson and I think the Bucks are headed in the right direction.

[yoshii8]

Is that w/ or w/out Damon Jones and Adrian Griffen? Because I don't think you can really consider them part of the team next season.

 

I disagree that they should be totally blown up if they don't win this season. Every core player is under 30, every guy over 30 isn't in the long term plans (Allen, Elson, Lue) and we have plenty of talented youth in Bogut, Sessions, Alexander, LRMAM and Villanueva if resigned. I would like to see them build around Redd, Jefferson and Bogut, and keep trying to find pieces for at least the next 2-3 seasons that fit well w/ them.

[trwi7]

If this core with Redd and Jefferson at their peak, Bogut finishing his fourth year, Villanueva finishing his fourth year and Ridnour can't win then this team needs to be blown up. You can only say Bogut and Villanueva have potential for so long. If they can't do it after this season then you can pretty much say it's done, they're not getting any better than they are right now.

 

Sessions and LRMAM are 2nd round picks. The likelihood of either of them panning out as more than role players is slim. Alexander was a complete reach of a pick imo and was taken due to his athleticism and hustle and not his actual basketball skills.

 

This team is depressing me already and training camp hasn't even started.

[JJHardy7]

You can only say Bogut and Villanueva have potential for so long. If they can't do it after this season then you can pretty much say it's done, they're not getting any better than they are right now.

 

I'm not real high on Villanueva so I'll agree with you on that one, but I think Bogut has improved every year. I think with a pass first point guard and Skiles in town it's not completely out of the question that Bogut generates some all-star consideration in the next few years.

 

Sessions and LRMAM are 2nd round picks. The likelihood of either of them panning out as more than role players is slim.

 

See - Michael Redd. I know it's one of the best examples in the history of the NBA, but one of these guys could pan out to be at least a solid starter.

 

Alexander was a complete reach of a pick imo and was taken due to his athleticism and hustle and not his actual basketball skills.

 

Who would you have taken? I'm fine with the pick the way the draft went. I'm not saying he's a slam dunk, but it was a risk that could be worth it. My biggest concern with Alexander that he's a tweener that really doesn't fit any position all that well. I think it's a little too early though to call it a complete reach of a pick IMO.

[yoshii8]

I don't understand how Alexander is considered that much of a reach. He was a first team all conference Big East guy that absolutely dominated for a good stretch of his junior season, and has shown unbelievable improvement from his freshman to junior year.

 

I'll admit that he didn't look very good in the summer league, but I don't think he looked as bad as some people are saying. To me he was just trying to make passes and take the open shots, I would guess that he was trying to get acclimated in his first couple games as a pro. I will take what I saw of him in the Big East and NCAA tournament, and the praise that hes gotten from scouts and Bob Huggins over a few meaningless summer league games. I believe that Joe Alexander was the right pick, and will be a good NBA player.

[trwi7]

I think with a pass first point guard and Skiles in town it's not completely out of the question that Bogut generates some all-star consideration in the next few years.

An all-star C in the East pretty much means jack to me so I'm not really sure why you're pulling that out as if it will impress me. There's Dwight Howard and then average to slightly above average C's like Bogut, Dalembert, Ilgauskas etc.

Bogut's problem is he is now entering his fourth year, has only one reliable post move that he can go to, completely lost the jump shot he had at Utah and isn't a good free throw shooter. If he can't add diversity to his offensive game in his fourth year then I can safely assume that it isn't going to happen.

See - Michael Redd. I know it's one of the best examples in the history of the NBA, but one of these guys could pan out to be at least a solid starter.

Again, I said the likelihood. I never said that they couldn't just that it's not likely. History proves that I'm right. Look at the 2nd round picks of the last five years.

The starters:

Monta Ellis
Anderson Varejao
Mo Williams

The role players:

Carl Landry
Gabe Pruitt
Ramon Sessions
Paul Millsap
Leon Powe
Brandon Bass
Ronny Turiaf
Louis Williams
Andray Blatche
Ryan Gomes
Amir Johnson
Chris Duhon
Trevor Ariza
Jason Kapono
Luke Walton
Steve Blake
James Jones
Kyle Korver

So that's three starters out of the last 150 2nd round picks, 18 role players out of the last 150 and the other 129 are either in the D-League, buried on the bench, went to Europe to play or are European players who may be role players or never come to the NBA. Banking on 2nd round picks to become anything more than role players will lead you to the lottery every single time.

Who would you have taken?

Someone who at least made sense for this roster. I didn't see much difference between Speights and Alexander as prospects and since we had just made the Jefferson trade Speights made more sense for our roster. I think Randolph has a lot more upside than Alexander. I think J.J. Hickson would've been a good pick. He was incredibly efficient on offense in the ACC as a freshman and blocked 1.5 shots. I would've been fine with Brook Lopez as well. Even if he never lives up to his potential, he should be a solid big.

The most disappointing thing about the Alexander pick to me was that he was pretty much the only guy we worked out. It seems like they saw him and decided not to work anybody else out and do their homework on anybody else. What would they have done if Alexander was taken by the Clippers or Knicks? Do they quick try to make a trade even if it means getting pennies on the dollar because they didn't do their homework? Do they draft somebody that they've barely scouted because "their guy" was taken?

[JJHardy7]

Bogut's problem is he is now entering his fourth year, has only one reliable post move that he can go to, completely lost the jump shot he had at Utah and isn't a good free throw shooter. If he can't add diversity to his offensive game in his fourth year then I can safely assume that it isn't going to happen.

 

He's 23 years old. He has plenty of time to develop his game and where he's at now he isn't a bad player. As far as an all-star, I don't care he's in the East. I'm talking a legit All-Star and not just a token spot because there aren't many other good players.

 

It seems like they saw him and decided not to work anybody else out and do their homework on anybody else.

 

Not every player is interested in working out for Milwaukee. Milwaukee most likely wanted to work out more players, but over the past few years that means nothing if a player refuses. Isn't it nice for a change to have a player who wants to be in Milwaukee? It's too early to tell if Alexander was worth the pick, but if you can give Bogut only four years to judge him as a player you should give Alexander four years.

[yoshii8]

We worked out Anthony Randolph and Donte Greene, he wasn't the only guy we worked out.

 

I also think Bogut has showed improvement from year to year, he developed into a good shot blocker last season. I really hope he starts to hit more open jumpers, I think this is the key to him becoming an elite center.

[trwi7]

He's 23 years old. He has plenty of time to develop his game and where he's at now he isn't a bad player. As far as an all-star, I don't care he's in the East. I'm talking a legit All-Star and not just a token spot because there aren't many other good players.

 

That's fine. I understand he's still young, but he'll have been in the NBA for a while. There comes a point where everybody has to say if a player isn't going to develop a post game, a rebounding game, a jump shot whatever then he's never going to. If Bogut can't next year then I'm of the opinion that he never will be. If you don't believe that, that's fine but that's where I'm at with him.

 

Not every player is interested in working out for Milwaukee. Milwaukee most likely wanted to work out more players, but over the past few years that means nothing if a player refuses.

 

How many 1st round talents did we work out? As far as I know it was Alexander, Randolph and Donte Greene. After that we worked out four guys, none of those four were drafted. I'm sorry but I don't buy the "players didn't want to be worked out in Milwaukee" crap. These guys are going to want to improve their draft position even if they don't want to play here. If they come in and impress then it's more likely they get drafted higher, either by us or another team after hearing about their workout. Nobody that I know of said they didn't want to come to Milwaukee this year to workout. As far as I know we didn't even try and after Alexander's workout we were pretty much banking on him falling to us and didn't even bother working anybody else out.

 

Isn't it nice for a change to have a player who wants to be in Milwaukee?

 

No, I'd rather have a talented player who hates it here than a player who imo will suck but loves to be here.

 

It's too early to tell if Alexander was worth the pick, but if you can give Bogut only four years to judge him as a player you should give Alexander four years.

 

I'll give Alexander time. I still think he's going to suck though.

[Crew2323]

No, I'd rather have a talented player who hates it here than a player who imo will suck but loves to be here.

You seem to imply that Alexander has no talent. I think his showing in college, especially last year, proves that he definitely has talent. I think he has the work ethic to maximize that talent on the NBA level.

 

I have to disagree with your above quote. What are the success rates of teams who have talented players who are on a team they hate? If they hate it, they usually aren't as motivated to play hard, and then become labeled cancers. Gary Sheffield was a talented player who hated Milwaukee. How did that turn out? I'm sure there are other examples that others can share. It's not always the most talented team that wins. See San Antonio Spurs, New York Giants 2008.

 

[trwi7]

It's not always the most talented team that wins. See San Antonio Spurs

I hope this is a joke.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

I see some criticism of the Mo Williams trade. I don't think people realize just how poorly Mo has played for us. He didn't play D and he made poor decisions with the ball. I think he has value, put not as a point guard, and not at his current salary. We need a point guard who distributes and plays some defense. Someday we will get one. For now we will settle for people who want to do that. It will take awhile to change the roster over, but for the first time in a long time a get sense that we have competent people trying to do that.

 

I saw in a previous post that someone doesn't like Andrew Bogut because he only has one post move. That would mean that he has one more move than Dwight Howard has, or Bill Laimbeer or Moses Malone had. We have not used Bogut well. Plus, he does not fit well with selfish teams. If he were with San Antonio he would be considered a star. I think that you will see Bogut have a very good season this year. I am guessing that he will be used as a passing center, his best role IMO.

[Crew2323]

I hope this is a joke.

Were the Spurs a more talented team than the Knicks in 1999? Not sure. Were the Spurs a more talented team than Nets in 2003? Perhaps. If they were, it wasn't by much. Were the Spurs a more talented team than the Pistons in 2005? I don't personally think so. Were the Spurs a more talented team than the Cavs in 2007? Probably.

 

I've never felt that the Spurs were a team full of big talent. Tim Duncan? Yes. I'm not downplaying the fact that they are a good team, but I don't see a lot of ultra talented players on the team, as you were referring to when speaking of Joe Alexander.

 

[trwi7]

Tim Duncan, one of the best players ever. Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili is more than enough to compliment him.

[davego]

"I'll give Alexander time. I still think he's going to suck though."

 

...and the wager is on...I'm guessing Joe is a pretty nice player but I'll give that it maybe year #3 before he is a 'impact' player.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

The Bucks second unit doesn't look to be real strong offensively. Alexander is going to have a lot of plays run for him when they are on the floor. He will get points. He will be very important to whatever success we have.