Hall upset with playing time

[Crazyk1294]

logan3825[/b]]I remember from his year at SS. Lots of mental mistakes and trying to make big plays instead of taking the sure out.

 

Yeah, that's what he's been doing at the plate; trying to hit an 8-run homer rather than taking what is given to him. Having said that, this is an affliction that is suffered by many on the current team, not just Billy...

[piccione88]

Billy made 17 errors at shortstop in 2006, that is 4 more than JJ made last year. Errors really are not a good judgment of a player, because like Bill James(I think it was Bill James) said you have to do something right to make an error. Billy might make more errors than JJ would at shortstop but that is due largley to the fact that he gets to so many more balls than JJ.

 

If you ask me JJ would be a better fit for third base, while Bill Hall is a much better shortstop, where your range is the most important aspect of your defensive game. The problem is that Hardy does not have the bat to play third base, but the last couple of years Billy has not looked much better.

[TooLiveBrew]

Billy just has to be patient. Branyan's never been able to hold on to even a platoon for very long.

 

This confuses me. How are you deciding this? Regardless of that, Branyan is clearly better than Hall v. RHP; I don't think Branyan's past seasons change much about that.

[TheCrew07]

I've never been a Hall guy, not even close. I agree with the statement that he's not fundamentally sound, and I think it's true that he'll make the fantastic play and boot the easy one. Let's be honest, it's not as if his errors come when he ranges to a ball in the hole, it's when a ball is hit right at him and he pulls a Roger Dorn. Since I've come to BF.net years ago I keep seeing that guys with more range have more errors... and while that may be true, I don't think that applies to Weeks or Hall.

 

At the plate he's always been feast or famine, and this year it's been more famine. I know he's better than his current BA, but his average is a direct result of his HR total. It looks to me like he's always swinging for the fence, trying to prove that last year's power output was a fluke.

 

As far as attitude goes, it's never a good thing when players start comparing themselves to other guys when they want to make a playing time arguement, that's a slippery slope. In my experience with football players, the kids that do this are typically the kids who will work just hard enough to hold down a starting spot, but not push themselves to be the best they can be. These kids usually get passed up by younger kids by mid-year as the kids behind them will keep working to get better. I have no idea what Hall is thinking, but I truly hope he's focusing on what he needs to do to be a better player than worrying about who on the team he's a better player than.

 

I'm not big on talent guys, I'd rather see results... 6 years ago I listened to Bob Stoops talk about coaching and in his presentation he talked about how most coaches fall into the trap of playing talent instead of playing results, and I feel I was guilty of that at the time. His presentation had a huge impact on me as a coach, and I think back to it often, especially in regards to Hall and Weeks conversations on this message board. Hall's talent is obvious, as are his results. He had a good year and a half run, and that may have very well been the high water mark for his career.

 

While JJ's range may be better suited for 3B, his offensive statistics are not, even last year he was below average for a 3B. His offense would be devalued much the same way Hall's was by moving from CF to 3B. JJ is a middle infielder and nothing more.

[bklynbrewcrew]

If Billy would just go the other way he would be good again. He has tremendous power to the opposite field and only hits when he goes with the pitch. When he insists on pulling everything as he has for much of the season he is useless.

[davego]

I think Jim Powell said it last week, that Billy is @ his best when he is playing pepper with the RF wall.

 

I guess I can sort of see his point of view that he is not pleased with less playing time. I wouldn't want him to be happy about it. Let's see what shakes out on this. He may respond and revert back to the Billy of '06 or he may sulk his way out of town. Either way, he has been a pretty loyal trooper thus far.

[Invader3K]

I think this is good. Maybe this will be a sign that Hall will step things up a bit and re-earn his starter spot.

 

I can't be mad at him...this is a guy who has done everything the Brewers have asked, and had a couple good years. I think he will rebound yet this season. He may never have a season like he did in '06 again, but I think he can still be a productive everyday player.

[Fatter than Joey]

Billy just has to be patient. Branyan's never been able to hold on to even a platoon for very long.

 

This confuses me. How are you deciding this? Regardless of that, Branyan is clearly better than Hall v. RHP; I don't think Branyan's past seasons change much about that.

Branyan has been with 7 different teams since 2004 (9 if you count the Brewers 2x and the Indians 2x). Branyan has not been a long term solution for anyone recently.

 

[Thurston Fluff]

I agree with those who feel Hall has been a loyal hard working player who has done eveything asked of him...except play good enough to be an everyday player. I repsect the way he works but at some point results matter. If Ned replaces a player it certainly isn't a knee jerk reaction. Ned sticks with his players to a fault. I doubt this would have a negative impact on the team as a whole because they know they all receive a fair shake from Ned.

[bjkrautk]

I know Batting Average isn't the be all and end all for stats argument, but he's lost about 20 points of batting average each year since hitting .291 in '05. His OBP doesn't follow the exact same path, since he had an extra 20 walks in his good year ('06).

 

His Iso. numbers have barely changed, while his average has tumbled precipitously. It's almost like he's stopped trying to just hit the ball and get on base, preferring instead to swing for the fences every time he's up.

 

...I just don't "get" Hall. The talent is obviously there, just not the results.

[twobrewers]

By all accounts Bill Hall is a great guy.

 

But his attitude is starting to annoy me. I don't like his approach at the plate. I don't like how he always sits and watches his HR. (Even those that bounce back in for a double) And I don't like listening to him complaining.

 

Villanueva took his demotion with a lot more class.

[shelmark]

They asked him to play RF but he couldn't find it. I agree he needs to be held accountable but so does JJ Hardy. Hall played very well as a SS a while back, and I don't see JJ Hardy producing any more than Hall. Why does JJ get a pass? I think he is not better than a utility guy. I agree Hall should shut up and look to RF, but we need all players to be held accountable. Stetter had two bad outings and gone. It seems the standard is different for different players.

[Thurston Fluff]

I agree he needs to be held accountable but so does JJ Hardy. Hall played very well as a SS a while back, and I don't see JJ Hardy producing any more than Hall. Why does JJ get a pass

 

It's a combination of being held accountable and having alternatives. Hall is muich worse against righties than lefties and there was a capable hitter against righties in AAA. JJ doesn't have the huge differance in his splits so platooning him wouldn't have the same effect as Hall. Sooner or later Hardy will be platooned or replaced if he doesn't turn it around but only when there is someone there to replace him.

[JohnBriggs12]

Hall has a right to be upset. He's certainly done no worse vs. expectations than Hardy or Weeks and they haven't been benched. Plus he's 9 for his last 24 with a 6 game hitting streak which is an odd time to bench a guy.

It's not a "who deserves to be benched issue". Hall's splits vs. RHP have been miserable ... So you bring up the platoon guy who's splits historically vs. RHP have been very good.

What am I missing here?

 

I'll tell you what you are missing here Brian. You are wrong about Branyan. His lifetime splits vs. righthanders aren't all that good: .231/.332/.481 with 1 K every 2.54 AB, despite playing mostly when it's a favorable matchup and they aren't really any better than Hall's lifetime splits (prior to this season) of .262/.310/.461.

 

Yes, Hall's splits (in 7 weeks of a 26 week season) vs. righthanders aren't good, but he still has 6 HR. But what you are also missing is that Hall is signed through at least 2010 and has earned a little more than 7 weeks of splits before being benched for a career bust like Branyan.

[endaround]

JJ doesn't have the huge differance in his splits so platooning him wouldn't have the same effect as Hall.

JJ's three year (2005-2007) splits:

 

vs LHP .297/.359/.558

vsRHP .251/.308/.383

 

With Braun, Hart, Hall, and Hardy there is a reason this team kills LHP and can't hit RHP.

[brewers19]

But what you are also missing is that Hall is signed through at least 2010 and has earned a little more than 7 weeks of splits before being benched for a career bust like Branyan.

 

Since when is an .800+ career OPS considered a bust?

[Brian the Automator]

I'll tell you what you are missing here Brian. You are wrong about Branyan. His lifetime splits vs. righthanders aren't all that good: .231/.332/.481 with 1 K every 2.54 AB, despite playing mostly when it's a favorable matchup and they aren't really any better than Hall's lifetime splits (prior to this season) of .262/.310/.461.

 

Yes, Hall's splits (in 7 weeks of a 26 week season) vs. righthanders aren't good, but he still has 6 HR. But what you are also missing is that Hall is signed through at least 2010 and has earned a little more than 7 weeks of splits before being benched for a career bust like Branyan.

2008 vs. RHP OPS (AAA): 1.265 (110 AB)

2007 vs. RHP OPS: .762 (144 AB)

2006 vs. RHP OPS .822 (200 AB)

2005 vs. RHP OPS: .943 (182 AB)

 

Hall's 2007 vs RHP OPS: .713 (304 AB)

So, by my calculations, it's been 7 weeks plus a YEAR of non-performance vs RHP by Billy.... How longer do we need to let him continue to damage the team vs RHP?

 

[shelmark]

In the last two seasons, in a little over 400 At bats, Branyan has K'd 154 times. I'm not defending Hall, and I know many here like Branyan's OPS, but his .220 batting average the last two seasons doesn't impress me either. Maybe a week off and Hall will find RF again.

[Brian the Automator]

In the last two seasons, in a little over 400 At bats, Branyan has K'd 154 times.

I suppose the importance of that boils down to how much worse a K is than a contact out...

 

[JohnBriggs12]

I'll tell you what you are missing here Brian. You are wrong about Branyan. His lifetime splits vs. righthanders aren't all that good: .231/.332/.481 with 1 K every 2.54 AB, despite playing mostly when it's a favorable matchup and they aren't really any better than Hall's lifetime splits (prior to this season) of .262/.310/.461.

 

Yes, Hall's splits (in 7 weeks of a 26 week season) vs. righthanders aren't good, but he still has 6 HR. But what you are also missing is that Hall is signed through at least 2010 and has earned a little more than 7 weeks of splits before being benched for a career bust like Branyan.

2008 vs. RHP OPS (AAA): 1.265 (110 AB)

2007 vs. RHP OPS: .762 (144 AB)

2006 vs. RHP OPS .822 (200 AB)

2005 vs. RHP OPS: .943 (182 AB)

 

Hall's 2007 vs RHP OPS: .713 (304 AB)

So, by my calculations, it's been 7 weeks plus a YEAR of non-performance vs RHP by Billy.... How longer do we need to let him continue to damage the team vs RHP?

 

 

You're stats still don't impress me Brian. Branyan only played when he had favorable matchups. Hall's been in there against all the top righthanders in the league. Stats against AAA pitching are to be discounted completely in my book for a veteran like Branyan. Hall would hit .375 in AAA with a ton of HR too.

 

Hall's hitting .409/.490/.705 vs. lefthanders this season. He likely won't keep that up any more than he'll end the season hitting .158 vs. righthanders but he sure won't by only playing once or twice a week. His splits this year are a statistical anomoly to this point.

 

As for damaging the team, nobody's damaging the team more offensively than Hardy and his .146 BA and .146 slugging with RISP.

[trwi7]

I suppose the importance of that boils down to how much worse a K is than a contact out...

Haha this is exactly what you were predicting in the thread when Branyan came back.

 

 

Brian the Automator wrote:

---

Welcome back, Russ. I look forward to the infinite number of "do strikeouts matter" arguments you will leave in your wake.

http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?t=10914?page=2

[brewers19]

Of the ten players that led in strikeouts last year, there was one above 1.000 in OPS, three in the .900 range, three in the .800 range, two in the .700 range, and one in the .600s (way to go, Brandon Inge). The previous year, there was one above 1.000, three in the .900 range, four in the .800 range, and two in the .700 range. Strikeouts may be frustrating as hell to watch, but they're hardly indicative of a player's total offensive output and contribution.

[TooLiveBrew]

Branyan has not been a long term solution for anyone recently.

 

All we need him to be is a 'solution' for the remainder of this season, though. Imho the only thing that matters in this example is that Branyan is a superior choice to Hall v. RHP.

 

 

You're stats still don't impress me Brian. Branyan only played when he had favorable matchups. Hall's been in there against all the top righthanders in the league.

 

Brian used Hall's stats v. RHP. What would you like him to use? Branyan only played the easy RHP, huh?

[Brian the Automator]

You're stats still don't impress me Brian. Branyan only played when he had favorable matchups. Hall's been in there against all the top righthanders in the league. Stats against AAA pitching are to be discounted completely in my book for a veteran like Branyan. Hall would hit .375 in AAA with a ton of HR too.

 

Hall's hitting .409/.490/.705 vs. lefthanders this season. He likely won't keep that up any more than he'll end the season hitting .158 vs. righthanders but he sure won't by only playing once or twice a week. His splits this year are a statistical anomoly to this point.

 

As for damaging the team, nobody's damaging the team more offensively than Hardy and his .146 BA and .146 slugging with RISP.

But that's the point, John ... Playing him when he has favorable matchups is the dictionary definition of platooning them. What do you say about his (Hall's) splits last year? Another statistical anomaly?

 

And yeah, Hardy's suffering big time right now. But the point is, and I've said it before, he doesn't have a platoon-mate that can take the burden off him. If he did, I'd be all for it (and Counsell isn't it).

 

[JohnBriggs12]

Brian, if I were convinced Branyan had value, then I'd move Hall to SS and get Hardy out of there. Branyan is a favorable matchup only against some righthanded pitching. Many good righthanders have him for lunch.

 

Hardy has batted with 60 runners in scoring position this season. He's knocked in 6 of them. To me that is a much more astounding stat than Hall's splits. That is the kind of production you'd expect out of a pitcher not an every day player.