Bush has to STAY (was Bush has to go)

[BrewCrewForever]

Maybe we can make Bush into a throwback, 3-inning-save type closer.

That is kind of what I was thinking and Doug Russell and Mike Wickett on 1250 were talking about this a few weeks ago. When he was at Wake if he came in the 7th inning or later there record was like 70something-0. Crazy.

 

 

(edit: pared back long quote --1992)

[MJLiverock]

Sure would be nice to have Will Inman right about now....

For what its worth Dave Bush was a good AA pitcher too and we see where that has lead.

[TheRealMattKain]

danzig6767 wrote:

Is there any data out there that tracks 1-2-3 innings?

I was wondering about this too. I've actually always had the impression that he gets hammered in the first, and then cruises from there on out (but this might be from 1 or 2 games from last year). Here's some numbers tracking how hitters do against Bush in each inning over his career:

(Sorry, I have no clue how to format this. Anyone want to PM me how? BBC codes don't seem to work here.)

BA OBP SLG OPS
1st inning .311 .373 .500 .873
2nd inning .273 .323 .464 .788
3rd inning .241 .294 .400 .694
4th inning .219 .282 .384 .666
5th inning .276 .315 .435 .750
6th inning .285 .320 .478 .798
7th inning .273 .310 .477 .787

Bush gets killed in the 1st, gets a little better in the 2nd, rolls in the 3rd and 4th, and starts struggling again in the 5th (I left out the 8th and 9th since the sample size was very small).

[DonMoney4Mgr]

It doesn't help when the manager leaves Bush in past his point of effectiveness. It's been the same m.o. for Bush for the past year+. When he hits a wall, it's over, time to pull him and cut your losses. Just as he couldn't pick up the pattern last year with Turnbow, Yost hasn't figured this one out either.

[hauser42]

Sure would be nice to have Will Inman right about now....

For what its worth Dave Bush was a good AA pitcher too and we see where that has lead.

Worth a lot because the next two jumps are tough and will show who has it or doesn't. Zack Jack was all world till he got to the upper levels and simply was not the same pitcher. Inman would not be a guy they call up this year, this regime has shown that they will not rush players to the bigs.

[brewmann04]

Ned need to remove Bush fro the same reasons he removed Villy from the Rotation.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

It doesn't help when the manager leaves Bush in past his point of effectiveness. It's been the same m.o. for Bush for the past year+. When he hits a wall, it's over, time to pull him and cut your losses. Just as he couldn't pick up the pattern last year with Turnbow, Yost hasn't figured this one out either.

 

Please tell me you aren't referring to last night. The guy was cruising and melted in a heartbeat. IMO Yost has shown a quicker hook this year, but when a guy melts in the 4-6th innings, its tough. With all of those extra inning games early and the injuries, he has to be cognizant of his overusing his pen as well.

 

The biggest problem is the pitching depth is gone. There just aren't many viable options for an ineffective Bush.

[brewmann04]

bush gets another shot tomorrow we shall see

[rluzinski]

Seriously, what would be the risk in giving Weaver a chance and sending Bush back down for a while?

 

The risk is obvious and it is that Weaver is even worse than Bush.

 

ERA, Last 3 Years:

 

Bush: 4.41, 5.12, 6.56

 

Weaver: 5.76, 6.20, 6.69 (AAA)

 

Neither have been good for at least a couple of years but it should be obvious that one should be expected to give you a better chance of winning than the other. Now, if there's a plan C that's better than both, I'd jump at it. Right now, there's nothing.

[T B0NE 10]

I really want to see Dave Bush in the bullpen. He had success in college I believe as the closer and he usually does fine when he pitches a couple of innings at a time. Heck, maybe Dave Bush could be that closer we have been searching for all this time

[BrewCrewForever]

So if Bush gets rocked again tonight, does he make his next start Sunday against Houston? I kind of hope not, I'm going to that game and it seems like every game I buy tickets for Bush is the SP.

[trwi7]

So if Bush gets rocked again tonight, does he make his next start Sunday against Houston? I kind of hope not, I'm going to that game and it seems like every game I buy tickets for Bush is the SP.

 

I would be okay with not giving Bush another start if he sucks tonight as long as Villanueva takes his spot. No DiFelice, no Jackson, no Weaver. None of them would be upgrades. Of course I'm loving what Villanueva has done out of the bullpen.

[GoudaBrew]

Bush had one of his best outings last year while dueling with Hudson in Milwaukee. He went 7.0 innings, allowing just 1 run and striking out 6. Of course the combination of Turnbow, Shouse, and Spurling (remember him!) allowed 7 runs in the 8th and we lost 9-3, but at least Bush had some success against the Braves. Do it again Bushie! No Turnbow to mess it up for you this time!

[brewmann04]

If Bush gets rocked tonight can't see how Ned can Justify leaving him in the Rotation.

[crewcrazy]

Bush had one of his best outings last year while dueling with Hudson in Milwaukee. He went 7.0 innings, allowing just 1 run and striking out 6. Of course the combination of Turnbow, Shouse, and Spurling (remember him!) allowed 7 runs in the 8th and we lost 9-3, but at least Bush had some success against the Braves. Do it again Bushie! No Turnbow to mess it up for you this time!

I had almost forgotten that game...thanks for the reminder. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif That had to be one of the toughest losses to take last year, but I remember watching it an actually laughing in disbelief. If I remember correctly, I don't think the Braves even hit a home run in that inning...it was all gappers. It was like watching them bleed to death from paper cuts.

[logan82]

trwi7 wrote:

I would be okay with not giving Bush another start if he sucks tonight as long as Villanueva takes his spot.

I could be wrong, but hasn't Villy been terrible as a starter so far also?

[BrewCrewForever]

I think Villanueva is best served in the pen. Will be valuable out there. So I wouldn't replace Bush with Carlos. But I'm not sure who they should, maybe Melvin can swing a trade.

[Glennron]

Bush had one of his best outings last year while dueling with Hudson in Milwaukee. He went 7.0 innings, allowing just 1 run and striking out 6. Of course the combination of Turnbow, Shouse, and Spurling (remember him!) allowed 7 runs in the 8th and we lost 9-3, but at least Bush had some success against the Braves. Do it again Bushie! No Turnbow to mess it up for you this time!

I was just going to mention that game too, I was at it http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif. He even out-pitched Hudson, maybe it'll somehow happen again tonight, hah.

 

If he pitches poorly again I have no idea what they'd do his next start. Villanueva has been just as bad as a starter, and I can't really see how Weaver, DiFelice or Jackson could do any better. Since Bush and Villanueva seem to be alright the first and second time through the order maybe they can throw each of them three innings or something? Bush's OPS against in innings 1-3 is .749, and innings 4-6 it's .926. For Villanueva it's .771 as opposed to 1.038.

[Oldcity]

Man, I saw some rough games last season. The Bush-Hudson game, the A-Ram game at Wrigley and the Yost-Aquino-Pence game. Ugh.

 

Unfortunately I just don't see many other options either. I imagine Bush will be in the rotation for the rest of the year, mainly because they have nobody else who is even decent.

[trwi7]

I could be wrong, but hasn't Villy been terrible as a starter so far also?

 

 

Yes but barring a trade Villanueva is the best option. You can't possibly tell me you want Weaver or DiFelice starting.

[logan82]

trwi7 wrote:

Yes but barring a trade Villanueva is the best option. You can't possibly tell me you want Weaver or DiFelice starting.

No, I would stick with Bush. It isn't like Villy should be expected to be better than Bush so replacing Bush with Villy would make very little sense.

[BrewCrewForever]

Yes but barring a trade Villanueva is the best option. You can't possibly tell me you want Weaver or DiFelice starting.

For sure not DiFelice. But for some reason I wouldn't mind seeing Weaver get 1 or 2 starts. Worst case scenario is he is as bad as Bush which we are putting up with anyway. Best case he somehow does better then Bush. Villa is probably the best option but I think he is better out of the pen. I guess I'm still holding out hope we can swing a deal for Maddux.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Worst case scenario is he is as bad as Bush which we are putting up with anyway.

 

Worst case, is that he could actually be worse. I understand the point is that it'd make little difference, but I think Weaver is clearly worse than even Bush has been.

[JohnBriggs12]

trwi7 wrote:

Yes but barring a trade Villanueva is the best option. You can't possibly tell me you want Weaver or DiFelice starting.

No, I would stick with Bush. It isn't like Villy should be expected to be better than Bush so replacing Bush with Villy would make very little sense.

Why shouldn't Villy be expected to be better than Bush? Or even vice versa. Or better than McClung for that matter. They aren't tied at the hip.

 

You can't base everything on what these guys have done this season. That each has struggled this year doesn't preclude either from turning it around. Coming into this season Villanueva as a starter in 12 starts was 3-4 with a 3.01 ERA. He's got a good home split as a starter this year, 2-1 3.56 ERA. Both Bush and Villanueva have been hurt by the long ball but mainly by power laden teams that are very capable doing it in very HR friendly parks.

 

Villanueva is 4 years younger than Bush. Nobody can say with certainty he's reached his ceiling. On the other hand it's quite likely the 28 year old Bush has shown us the best he has. That Villanueva has been effective out of the pen shouldn't preclude him from starting again.

[TooLiveBrew]

Why shouldn't Villy be expected to be better than Bush?

 

Because they have been & continue to be very similar pitchers. He's not basing that off this season. Why you continue to use ERA & W-L to try & define pitchers boggles my mind.