Don't look now, but Escobar's now hitting .300!

[battlekow]

I can honestly say I have no idea what games you're listening to if you've never heard reference made to Hardy's lack of foot speed. Wait until the next time he's on first with two outs and see if Brian or Bill mentions that there's "below average" or "not very good" speed on bases in case of a gapper.

[Gopher74]

I doubt Hardy lost all that speed in a year.

Disagree on that thought. He was faster and more powerful prior to last year. He battled back injuries and shoulder injuries and it's anyone's guess as to whether he will or won't be the same player again.

 

He ran that time last year. And last year he hit 26 HR's. I don't know where the claim can be made, nor justified that he used to be stronger and faster, but now isn't because of back and shoulder injuries that preceded the time we're talking about, and a HR total that was one more than he hit in 300+ games in the minors, and far more than he's hit in the big leagues.

 

So when were these injuries? The shoulder was in Triple A before he ever came up. The Back injuries were all minor injuries. Spasm's and what not. Kinda hard to make the claim that it's made him this vastly different player when he performed better during those injuries than ever before them.

 

[Gopher74]

I can honestly say I have no idea what games you're listening to if you've never heard reference made to Hardy's lack of foot speed. Wait until the next time he's on first with two outs and see if Brian or Bill mentions that there's "below average" or "not very good" speed on bases in case of a gapper.

The Brewers games.

 

But lets just say that they do say that. So what? The simple fact is that he is not slow. But again, they've made comments about his base stealing ability. Not about his pure speed.

 

JJ's very fast. Not sure why people can't see past SB's to gauge a guy's speed. There is a lot more to stealing bases than just speed.

 

[uwisfan]

I doubt Hardy lost all that speed in a year.

Disagree on that thought. He was faster and more powerful prior to last year. He battled back injuries and shoulder injuries and it's anyone's guess as to whether he will or won't be the same player again.

 

He ran that time last year. And last year he hit 26 HR's. I don't know where the claim can be made, nor justified that he used to be stronger and faster, but now isn't because of back and shoulder injuries that preceded the time we're talking about, and a HR total that was one more than he hit in 300+ games in the minors, and far more than he's hit in the big leagues.

 

So when were these injuries? The shoulder was in Triple A before he ever came up. The Back injuries were all minor injuries. Spasm's and what not. Kinda hard to make the claim that it's made him this vastly different player when he performed better during those injuries than ever before them.

 

Not a specific injury, but he was complaining about back problems half way and towards the end of the season. I thought it probably made a contribution to his sudden power shortage.

 

[southpaw121505]

JJ Hardy is not fast. I understand the difference between baserunning and speed. He does not have good speed. Average AT BEST.

[Mass Haas]

I'm guilty as charged as far as pushing along the Hardy "speed" issue, but let's see if this thread can steer back to Alcides Escobar's 2008 season at some point, thanks.

[bullox]

JJ Hardy is not fast. I understand the difference between baserunning and speed. He does not have good speed. Average AT BEST.

My apologies Mass, just want to set this straight here:

Players were timed twice and Hall's best effort was 6.67 seconds, good, but not good enough to win the title of world's fastest Milwaukee Brewer. Outfielder Corey Hart took that honor with a time of 6.59 seconds, just edging infielder Hernan Iribarren's 6.61 second run, outfielder Drew Anderson's 6.69 and surprise contender J.J. Hardy's 6.71. Second baseman Rickie Weeks, one of the pre-race favorites, ran a 6.85, and another pole-sitter, third baseman Ryan Braun, ran a 6.90.

This was from the article after last year's infamous 60 yard dash. Hardy ran better than a lot of people thought he would. That said, I still think he just looks goofy when he runs, ala Ben Sheets, and that clouds our judgment of his true speed.

 

 

[Gopher74]

JJ Hardy is not fast. I understand the difference between baserunning and speed. He does not have good speed. Average AT BEST.

Based on what? I'm seriously here. Because you say so? Because he doesn't "look" fast? The very simple fact of the matter is using the only quantifiable, objective evaluation we have, he was one of the fastest Brewers on the team.

 

Just because everyone buys into a myth doesn't make it true. JJ Hardy has good speed. That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

 

[homer]

Those times are based on a hand held stop watch if I'm not mistaken. There'a a ton of variability there.

[And That]

There's also a bit of a different skill set involved in running 180 feet in a straight line vs running 180 feet while running in an arc/pivoting and stopping/starting. Hardy's lack of range at shortstop leads me to believe he might have problems changing direction and stopping/starting quickly. This is surely a necessary skill to be a quick baserunner.

 

Not to mention, part of baserunning speed is instincts - you're going to get somewhere faster if you have good instincts because you'll make up your mind more quickly and commit to it. IMO, Hardy doesn't have great instincts on the basepaths. If he did, with his speed, you'd think he'd have more than 21 stolen bases in 36 attempts since being drafted.

 

I have no doubt Hardy has good straight-line speed. That in and of itself does not a fast/good baserunner make.

[TooLiveBrew]

Alcides Escobar once ran a 5.38-second 60-yd. dash, backwards, carrying a medicine ball & an abacus while underwater! Sorry...

 

 

How has Escobar fared in his career v. LHP? I know there's small sample at play, but so far his line v. lefties is .327/.397/.500/.897. That has certainly helped mask the .291/.320/.358/.678 v. RHP, but his overall OBP is at .339. Is this encouraging, or is it just small sample?

[JJHardy7]

There's also a bit of a different skill set involved in running 180 feet in a straight line vs running 180 feet while running in an arc/pivoting and stopping/starting. Hardy's lack of range at shortstop leads me to believe he might have problems changing direction and stopping/starting quickly. This is surely a necessary skill to be a quick baserunner.

 

Agreed. Why do they even do the 60-yard dash? How about timing guys starting from home to first, first to second, etc. That would be much more meaningful in debating this. Hardy may be fast in that 60-yard dash, but from what I've seen on the field he's just not that quick.

[Gopher74]

I have no doubt Hardy has good straight-line speed. That in and of itself does not a fast/good baserunner make.

Nobody ever said that it did. In fact, it's been readily acknowledged on here that he is not a great base runner. The only point that I've made on here is that anyone calling Hardy slow is absolutely wrong.

 

It went from me saying he was not slow and that he is in fact actually one of the fastest Brewers. A couple people telling me how wrong I was, it being proven that he's one of the fastest, to now excuses being made for why despite the actual facts he's really not that fast or how being fast doesn't make him a great base runner...which was never disputed.

 

Bottom line, Hardy has good speed. Unless someone can give me a more recent time that proves otherwise, the fact remains that he, when tested, was one of the fastest Brewers.

 

[And That]

The Brewers play baseball, they are not a professional wind sprint running team.* Hardy is not baseball fast. We've established and agreed on that much. So I would argue in terms of a baseball discussion, Hardy is not fast. I think we would also agree that there are many other Brewers who are faster on the basepaths.

 

Therefore, in terms of a baseball discussion, he is not one of the fastest Brewers.

 

QED.

 

I never got the point of clocking 60-yard times in the first place.

 

 

 

*With the offense the way it has been for much of the year, I suppose you could argue they are, in fact, a professional wind sprint running team.

[Gopher74]

The Brewers play baseball, they are not a professional wind sprint running team.* Hardy is not baseball fast. We've established and agreed on that much. So I would argue in terms of a baseball discussion, Hardy is not fast. I think we would also agree that there are many other Brewers who are faster on the basepaths.

 

Therefore, in terms of a baseball discussion, he is not one of the fastest Brewers.

 

QED.

Well, since this was the post that started it off;

JJ is slow running, does have limited range, and does not offer that huge offensive upside. Last year was a fluke beginning. JJ will never, ever hit like he did.

I took it to mean that he's simply slow since it said "slow running".

 

Either way, we've gone from he's "slow" to "not fast". We can quibble all day if you'd like, but the initial premise that he's slow...just-isn't-true. It can be spinned in 20 different ways, but Hardy has good speed. He's not the base runner that Weeks is, or Hart is, but he can score from 2nd on most singles. He doesn't seem especially quick, but he's not slow. I don't know why it's so hard to admit that someone may have been mistaken based on common perception.

[And That]

I would agree that it's probably not correct to call Hardy "slow." I would say the subsequent premise that Hardy is one of the fastest Brewers is also probably incorrect.

 

I would also posit that most people agree with the previous two sentences.

 

He ain't that slow, he ain't that fast.

 

He ain't heavy, he's my J.J.

 

That's my last thought on the subject.

[JJHardy7]

Either way, we've gone from he's "slow" to "not fast". We can quibble all day if you'd like, but the initial premise that he's slow...just-isn't-true. It can be spinned in 20 different ways, but Hardy has good speed. He's not the base runner that Weeks is, or Hart is, but he can score from 2nd on most singles. He doesn't seem especially quick, but he's not slow. I don't know why it's so hard to admit that someone may have been mistaken based on common perception.

 

I think the points that aren't maybe connecting here are two different points:

 

1. Sprinting Speed

2. Baseball Speed

 

Looking at those 60 yard dashes there's no way I'd put Hardy up among the faster Brewers on the baseball field. It's good and all that he's fast in the meaningless 60-yard dash, but it would be great if that translated to baseball fast. If that 60-yard dash was any kind of an indicator Mr. Hardy would have quite a few more stolen bases. Is it fair to say that Hardy isn't baseball fast? He's not the slowest guy on the team, but he's never going to be confused with guys that appear to be above average in terms of baseball speed -- Weeks & Braun -- two guys that he was faster than in the 60-yard dash.

[TheCrew07]

That Escobar sure can hit eh?

[Hate those Rodents]

You guys hijacked my thread with the pointless speed/base stealing/JJ stuff! May I please have it back? LOL