End of the Season Trade Idea: Fielder and Bush for Lincecum and Cain

[SeriesFinale]

SeriesFinale, I agree with you when you say those two pitchers will never be dealt in one move, but SF can absolutely afford to spend on free agents, and they've already shown that they will do so.

That's exactly what I said.

 

At any rate, with Magowan stepping down at the end of this season, I see it even less likely that Lincecum and/or Cain gets dealt this off-season.

[logan82]

endaround wrote:

I think Brewer fans are spoiled when it comes to prospects coming up and hitting given Braun, Fielder and to a lesser degree Hart.

I like the path the team took with Hart. I would like to see more of our prospects stay in the minors longer and come up a little more polished. Fielder, Weeks and Hardy all came up with major flaws in their game and would all have benifited from more time in AAA.

[rousieboy]

Weeks and Fielder gets it done and I am glad I am not the only one thinking like this...to me Weeks is overrated and others might be into what could be...slickfielding infielders and awesome pitching beat out .235 avg and getting sent down in the autumn. End of '09 or end of '10 would give Weeks ANOTHER year to prove he can be Dan Uggla...

[mothershipconnection]

So when LaPorta takes a full season to adjust to major league pitching, we write off 2009?

 

Could definitely happen. We also have to think, in a scenario where we have no Sheets, and only 1 decent pitcher coming back from surgery, who's gonna pitch for us? That, to me, would be a bigger problem than a single prospect who may struggle but is surrounded by an established lineup.

[DrWood]

rousieboy wrote:.to me Weeks is overrated and others might be into what could be...slickfielding infielders and awesome pitching beat out .235 avg and getting sent down in the autumn. End of '09 or end of '10 would give Weeks ANOTHER year to prove he can be Dan Uggla...

 

god, I hope he ends up better than Uggla.

[Gopher74]

Weeks and Fielder gets it done and I am glad I am not the only one thinking like this...to me Weeks is overrated and others might be into what could be...slickfielding infielders and awesome pitching beat out .235 avg and getting sent down in the autumn. End of '09 or end of '10 would give Weeks ANOTHER year to prove he can be Dan Uggla...

You're the first person who's brought up Rickie Weeks, so I don't know why you'd lead off by saying that you're glad you're not the only one who thinks like this.

 

2nd-Weeks OBP was also .385 last year as a leadoff hitter, top 5 in baseball. Simply throwing out one stat and saying, "see, he was bad" is a bad way to make an argument and a worse way to run an organization. Rickie Weeks is going to be a huge part of us making a run either way, if we do, or if we don't. And Rickie Weeks upside is far more than that of Dan Uggla.

 

Also, Weeks and Fielder is overkill, big overkill for this trade.

 

 

 

2nd, A 50 HR guy is worth more to a team than any starting pitcher.

3rd, Cain isn't that good, though he is very young. He walks a lot of guys, and he's a flyball pitcher which doesn't bode well for Miller Park. I'd rather have Parra than Cain over the next few years.

I think Peavy, Webb, Santana, guys like that are certainly more valuable than a 50 HR hitter. Especially when you're talking about post-season play. In the post-season a pitcher is far, far more important and valuable than just about any position player. A true ace can get you 3 wins in a 7 game series.

 

As for Cain, I guess this is like Kershaw in that we simply don't agree, but I certainly don't agree with you on Cain.

 

He's 23 years old, has a career 3.78 ERA over 80 starts.

He's thrown 195 innings on average the last 2 years, and struck out 179 and 163 in 32 and 31 starts. Yea, he doesn't have a great FB ratio, but Sheets hasn't either, especially in 04-06. He was a pretty good pitcher himself during that time. And then there's the fact that Cain's got a lot of upside still and I think that Lincecum and Cain for Prince would be anything but us overpaying.

Overall, this is kinda right along with the type of deal I've been thinking about. I know you and I talked about another deal that you didn't like which was Clayton Kershaw+Johnathan Broxton+Andy LaRoche for Prince Fielder and 2 prospects in the 6-12 type range. But I would definitely love a deal like this. You bring in 2 very, very good young power pitchers, and while you lose Prince, you still have a very able 1st basemen coming up behind him in LaPorta or Gamel. I'd go with Gamel because he's a lefty and because he can play very good defense at 1st most likely.

 

But as others have said, the Giants likely wouldn't make a deal giving up both of those young pitchers. Maybe you could expand it to be Prince/Hardy/Prospect for Lincecum/Cain/Vizquel.

You lose your 1st and SS, but you've got a guy who can close the gap until Escobar is ready at Short, and you've got someone who can replace your 1B and you get 2 frontline guy's back. That'd be a deal you'd almost have to make.

 

 

(combined consecutive posts -1992)

[DrWood]

While I love Peavy, Webb, and Santana, how many times have they powered their team through the playoffs? I also think those guys are in another class above lincecum and cain, though lincecum could join their neighborhood in another year or two.

[twobrewers]

You're the first person who's brought up Rickie Weeks, so I don't know why you'd lead off by saying that you're glad you're not the only one who thinks like this.

I'd rather include Weeks than Parra.

 

Weeks just isn't very valuable. His OBP is hovering around .315 and his power comes and goes. In addition, he is a pretty severe liability at 2B. Finding a comparable replacement isn't very hard. I understand his "potential", but personally - I am past his "potential". I think he is just a streaky player who will always be a liability in the field.

[fleehaw]

Here's another couple options that I'd go for.

 

Fielder to the Red Sox for Ellsbury & Lowrie (if Lowrie can handle 3B better than Hall).

 

or better yet

 

Fielder to the Angels for Saunders, Willits, Figgins, & Mathis.

 

In either scenario, you then have the option of dealing Hall for something of value. Perhaps to the Twins for Guerrier and a mid range prospect.

 

I agree with other posters that if Fielder turns down a multi-year deal and LaPorta and/or Gamel continue doing what they're doing, then trading Fielder is probably in the best interest of the franchise. After '09 makes the most sense, but I guess it depends what the offers are.

 

Not meaning to hijack the thread, I'm also of the opinion that Sheets will be resigned. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but he seems like a guy that just enjoys playing the game and comes across as indifferent about the money. Also, I don't think you can let a pitcher of his caliber walk without someone waiting in the wings. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

[rousieboy]

Fleehaw...don't forget the Rays and all that pitching that is maturing and matriculating and a very nice clip in the minors...it will be even better if Fielder is not traded till '10...

 

Gopher...When I said I am glad I am not the only one thinking this way, I was referring to trading some of the arby ready first generation studs away for pitching...but I didn't articulate my full thought there and just went straight into the trade ideas....(I love this idea...Clayton Kershaw+Johnathan Broxton+Andy LaRoche for Prince Fielder and 2 prospects in the 6-12 type range...I just think that Weeks for Cain as well would be equally great and allow Escobar, Iribarren, Hardy and Hall to fight it out for middle inf AB's and $$$...)

 

But I will throw out three years worth of stats and say that Weeks still hasn't done much of anything and is already approaching arbitration...rah...so you think I threw out one stat and said,"see, he is bad"...how is that any different from you throwing out one stat and saying,"see, he is awesome"...

 

I will go with what twobrewers is saying 2 quotes below yours and say once more...I am glad that I am not the only one thinking this way...

[Roscoe Chill]

So when LaPorta takes a full season to adjust to major league pitching, we write off 2009?

 

Ah yes, you probably said the exact same thing about Braun last year too endaround. And I remember the Ryan Braun thread when the majority of posters around here predicted him for closer to 10 home runs than 20 over the last four months of the season. Who cares if he doesn't hit as good as Braun did (that's a tall order)? Do you really think he's not going to be any good?

 

People say Prince won't age well once he hits 30? Hell, I don't see him aging well after hits 25. He's getting fatter by the day.

[DrWood]

Here's another couple options that I'd go for.

 

Fielder to the Red Sox for Ellsbury & Lowrie (if Lowrie can handle 3B better than Hall).

 

or better yet

 

Fielder to the Angels for Saunders, Willits, Figgins, & Mathis.

.

 

I don't see how those two offers are anywhere close. Ellsbury and Lowrie aren't close to Saunders, Willits, Figgins and Mathis, nor to the value of Prince.

[jjfanec]

Any trade that doesn't get a solid 1 or 2 type starter doesn't make sense to me. Front end pitching to go along with Yo is the only reason we trade Prince. The value he brings is being able to net a solid starter and one more player, not a bunch of bats where we have solid prospects. However, if Gamel can't cut it at 3rd I wouldn't mind the a solid pitcher and a 3rd baseman.

[southpaw121505]

I think everyone is way off base here and I think Fielder will be signed long-term. I know the concerns about his fielding, including his lousy footwork when he catches throws, and his possible body issues, but I think the current regime is thinking of building around him and Braun. Is the fact that he is a Boras client the reason so many suspect he is leaving? Personally, I believe at some point we have to address our lack of pitching. We have one top starter and the rest are end of the rotation guys, with only Parra having the stuff for anything better.

I think you are off base. You think Prince will be signed long term. I strongly disagree for a lot of the reasons you mentioned, especially the Boras reason and his seemingly poor attitude about his contract status. It seems like a contradiction to say you want to extend Prince AND improve pitching. How? The point of this thread is that pitching needs to be improved, which you agree on. But, how does that happen if we dump a lot of money into Prince? Not only does that tie up money but he's probably our best asset to net top tier pitching, and has a couple of replacement options knocking on the door.

 

I like the King Felix idea a couple people have mentioned. Clement would also be nice, even if he doesn't stick behind the plate. He could get some starts at catcher and some at first to give LaPorta a day off here and there against tough righties. If he sticks behind the plate, even better.

 

Prince/Bush/Brad Nelson

for

King Felix and Jeff Clement

 

 

[strawbossisevil]

Gopher,

 

I really like the LaRoche, Krenshaw, and Broxton for Fielder deal.

 

We would probably have to include quite a bit of talent on our end in such a deal, but that fills a lot of our team's holes.

 

LaRoche is a solid OBP guy, who has solid pop. He is obviously available, and could be had.

Krenshaw is a stud pitching prospect that we could put in the rotation along with Gallardo.

Broxton would provide us with the shut down closer that we need.

 

As I was thinking about moves that could be made. I thought of giving Sheets up to the Yankees for Hughes. The Yankees are in need of a Sheet's caliber pitcher right now as they are falling behind in the playoff chase, and they could certainly provide him with the extension he would want. Hughes would provide us with another young pitcher with a very high upside.

 

Next Year's Rotation:

Gallardo

Krenshaw

Hughes

Suppan

Villenueva/Parra/Bush (two of the three go to the pen)

 

Next Year's Lineup:

1st Base: LaPorta

2nd Base: Weeks

Shortstop: Hardy

3rd Base: LaRoche

Left Field: Braun

Center Field: Cameron/Hart

Right Field: Hart/Gamel

Catcher: Kendall

[Wesrob1]

I'd offer Fielder, Hardy, Parra for Lincecum and Cain. SF needs players with solid defensive backgrounds in order to give themselves a chance to win with such a lack of offense. With that said, Fielder really doesn't fit that mold(Weeks neither), but Fielder would offer a face to their franchise, which could be a selling point.

[JohnBriggs12]

There's one huge problem in trading Prince. Other than Gamel, there are no lefthanded bats to replace him. That's why the only deal proposed that makes any sense to me is the Seattle deal that includes Clement. To me a big part of the offensive woes of this year's team is that it's just plain too righthanded. They should be looking to add lefthanded bats, not subtract the only one they have.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't explore the idea of deal, but any deal that doesn't bring back a lefthanded bat, is going to have to be followed up by one that does.

[jjfanec]

There's one huge problem in trading Prince. Other than Gamel, there are no lefthanded bats to replace him. That's why the only deal proposed that makes any sense to me is the Seattle deal that includes Clement. To me a big part of the offensive woes of this year's team is that it's just plain too righthanded. They should be looking to add lefthanded bats, not subtract the only one they have.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't explore the idea of deal, but any deal that doesn't bring back a lefthanded bat, is going to have to be followed up by one that does.

I agree this team needs a left-handed bat, or at least righties who do not have extreme splits like some of our guys do. I name I have brought up a couple times is Andy LaRoche. LA has two young 3B. DeWitt is a lefty but if you look at LaRoche's numbers his split are almost the same. At a couple levels he hit RHP pitching better.

 

In a perfect world this team needs another lefty bat. But I would rather get a top end starting pitcher with Prince, because I think that is a bigger need than a lefty bat. I wonder if we could do a separate trade to Seattle for Clement. The problem is if the trade doesnt involve Prince to get Clement it would have to involve Gamel or LaPorta who need to be here if Prince is traded.

 

[Wesrob1]

Any chance that Gamel could be switched to 1B or is it too late in his development?

[sweepscc]

I don't think it's ever too late to teach a guy 1st base.