Gamel ready? Platoon with Hall?

[Chio151]

Mat Gamel, one of the Brewers top prospects, came a triple short of a cycle Saturday night for Double-A Huntsville, and he has hit a home run in three straight games. Gamel, a left-handed-hitting third baseman who turns 23 in July, is batting .375 with eight homers and 33 RBIs through Saturday. He has a .438 on-base percentage and slugs .681.

(Source: Yost thinks Brewers near breakout)

Right-handed pitchers have given right-handed hitting third baseman Bill Hall fits this season. He is hitting .158 (16 for 101) with 31 strikeouts against righties, compared to .333 against left-handers.

 

So, is Hall starting to profile as a platoon player?

 

"I don't think so," Yost said. "He's got too much power, too much bat speed.

 

"When he's not going well, he does (pull off pitches from righties). When he's going well, he doesn't. It's just a matter of consistency in his offensive game.

(Source: Yost, Melvin plan to review personnel)

 

I know Gamel is in AA and still a liability defensively, but couldn't he be an occasional platoon with Billy at third? Hall could still come in as a defensive replacement late in games, but it may be a way of increasing production from that spot.

 

Is that too much, too fast for Gamel?

 

 

(edit: added links; please cite sources --1992)

[DrWood]

Branyan would be a better choice to take a couple starts a week from hall.

[logan82]

After last year, I want players who aren't thought of as defensive liabilities brought up.

[RightFieldCoder]

Young players would benefit more from playing every day rather than platooning. Especially for defensive purposes, he needs to be out there, not sitting on the bench.

[Thurston Fluff]

10 errors in 37 games and no experience higher than AA. No way. Especially in a platoon or part time situation. He should play regularly and get promoted level by level until he's as ready as Hart was. I really don't want to see any young players waste their first three cheap years in a part time or learning on the job.

[logan82]

Backupcatchers wrote:

I really don't want to see any young players waste their first three cheap years in a part time or learning on the job.

I think that is Counsell's real value to the team.

[BrewCrewForever]

Branyan would be a better choice to take a couple starts a week from hall.

Yes, Branyan should be the guy platooning with Billy if anyone should.

 

[Brian the Automator]

Young players would benefit more from playing every day rather than platooning. Especially for defensive purposes, he needs to be out there, not sitting on the bench.

To the contrary, it seems like many managers "break in" their young talented players against pitchers that they have an easier time handling to:

a) keep them productive

b) grow their confidence

I agree about the defense, though.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't think a manager's employ of a young player & what's best for said young player are always the same thing, though. Do you really feel that it would be best for Gamel to play half (or whatever fraction) of the time against pitchers that, on the whole, would overmatch him? I think I want the young guy (who has no reason to be up at MLB) getting regular, day-to-day at-bats.

[jazzytrav]

I guess it depends on what kind of hitter you'd like them to be, though. If you bring up Gamel and only show him right-handed pitching for awhile, I imagine he would stop developing against lefties. I know it's not as simple as that as a hitter is always a hitter to some extent, but if we ever want him to be a full-time 3rd baseman, I imagine it would be best to show him both sides throughout his development.

[brewerinvegas]

Liability defensively? Gamel makes Braun look like Brooks Robinson. If we weren't overloaded with outfielders in the minors, Gamel would already have been moved.

[jazzytrav]

Yeah, it's getting a little tiring having all these guys with huge bats that just get pushed into the outfield cause they can't field a grounder. I would think at some point that Gamel or LaPorta become trade bait for more pitching prospects. Otherwise our outfield gets even more clumped with big bats and no D.

[Thurston Fluff]

To the contrary, it seems like many managers "break in" their young talented players against pitchers that they have an easier time handling to:

a) keep them productive

b) grow their confidence

 

Seems like there are two paths for this. One is the Weeks, Hardy, Braun, Fielder approch where they come in and play consistantly right away (barring injury) or ease them in like Hall and Hart did. It looks like both ways work but I think part of the equation is how prepared they were coming in as well as who else is on the team. Hall was out of options and really wasn't ready for more. Hart had people blocking him but really did everything he could in the minors so for his progress it seemed wiser to let him play occsionally agisnt the major leaguers. The others pretty much came in with no real veteran in fornt of them nad porbably needed consistant at bats to keep them progresing. Prince was a little differant since they traded Overbay to make room for him. Maybe looking back that was a mistake since I think Prince could have used alittle more time working on his defense but offensively he had all the making of a real differance maker and a MVP type player. Those guys are in a differant category thna most. Gamel to me looks like someone who obviously needs more work on defense. Add in the chance his development could be done more harm than good jumping two levels and playing part time and I just don't see the benefit outweighing the potential downside.

[JohnBriggs12]

"10 errors in 37 games" (1 error every 3.7 games). Considering that every game Huntsville has played has been started by a lefthanded pitcher, that's not really all that bad.

 

That represents noticeable improvement over 2007 when he had 53 errors in 128 games (1 error every 2.4 games) and would translate into 35 errors over the same amount of games. Keep in mind too that Brevard had a preponderance of lefties last year too. I think they want to see continued improvement so they won't make that move this year.

 

I think a Gamel/Hall platoon is likely in 2009 if he can continue to show progress defensively into a guy who is at least slightly better than Braun was last year. Then the Brewers could start Gamel vs. Righthanders, and replace him with Hall from the 7th inning on. They really didn't have the luxury last year with Braun, because the dropoff in offense to Counsell was so dramatic, that Ned if he did make a move, had to wait until the 9th.

 

Sure Braun was a defensive liability in 2007. But his offense was so off the charts, that on balance in my opinion, he was definitely a net plus for the team. If Gamel is capable of putting up spectacular offensive numbers, I could live with him making 20-25 errors vs. the damage he could do in 400 or so AB's.

[TooLiveBrew]

That represents noticeable improvement over 2007 when he had 53 errors in 128 games (1 error every 2.4 games) and would translate into 35 errors over the same amount of games.

 

Errors are a terrible way of evaluating fielders, especially in the minors.

 

Also, I'm confused about your point about LHSP... do you have some correlating info that more guys are pulling the baseball to 3B?

 

 

But [braun's] offense was so off the charts, that on balance in my opinion, he was definitely a net plus for the team. If Gamel is capable of putting up spectacular offensive numbers, I could live with him making 20-25 errors vs. the damage he could do in 400 or so AB's.

 

Braun cancelled out roughly 75% of his offense at 3B. Using errors as the lightning rod does not help you arrive at that kind of calculation. Honestly, I could care less about Gamel's E total -- how's his fielding on the whole? We need some firsthand accounts, and should probably head to the minor-league forum.

[twobrewers]

As a 3B, Gamel could be an absolute stud.

As an OF or 1B, he could be very good.

It's too early to limit him. When his defense is ready, he will get the call. But I would rather wait a year and have him playing almost every day as a quality 3B, than see him part time or in the OF.

Besides, Huntsville is too fun to follow right now!

[TooLiveBrew]

You probably don't need that blue font. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[logan82]

twobrewers wrote:

It's too early to limit him. When his defense is ready, he will get the call. But I would rather wait a year and have him playing almost every day as a quality 3B, than see him part time or in the OF.

I would like that approach with any young players. I wish they had taken that approach with Braun.

[JohnBriggs12]

"I'm confused about your point about LHP"

 

What's confusing? It's a generalization to be sure, but most teams stack lineups with righthanded hitters vs. lefties, and they are much more likely to pull groundballs to third than lefthanded hitters, who if go the other way, do so in the air. Think about it this way, in the same number of games, Hall has 58 assists to 77 for Gamel. Brewers have one lefty starter. Not too many guys pull balls to left side on the ground vs. Sheets, hence defense at third with him on the mound isn't as important. If you go back to last year, none of Braun's errors occured with Sheets pitching.

 

I reviewed the game recaps for Huntsville to date and this is what I've got on Gamel (these could be slightly off): 77 assists, 16 putouts, 10 errors (7 fielding, 3 throwing).

That's a .903 FP. Not very good but Braun was at .895 last season. Three of the errors occured in one game. No other game did he record more than one error.

[TooLiveBrew]

What's confusing? It's a generalization to be sure, but most teams stack lineups with righthanded hitters vs. lefties, and they are much more likely to pull groundballs to third than lefthanded hitters, who if go the other way, do so in the air.

 

It's a generalization. What's confused me is that you're assuming you can predict the outcomes (as in, pulled balls by RHB). I don't know if it's that teams 'stack' their lineups in the minors, as it's that RHB far outnumber LHB. You certainly don't tend to see LHB prospects (heck, or any good LHB) benched v. LHP in the minors... not good for development, especially since W-L records in the minors are meaningless.

 

I don't know one way or the other, but assuming something like 'Gamel is seeing more grounders at 3B ditectly related to Huntsville's LHSP' bothers me on principle. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I see 5-3 (or 6-3) groundball outs seemingly every game I attend from LHB getting jammed in on their hands.

[Never Outhustled]

The last 2 years Hall had an OPS versus RHP of 846 and 713. Since he is better defensively than Gamel and Branyan, they would have to bat significantly better versus RHP just to make this a breakeven situation. On top of that, even if they started vs RHP, they'd still have to face LHRP, and I could't fathom either hitting a LHP better than Hall.

 

Judging Hall on 104 ABs this year would be rather on fair to him, and haphazard to the Brewers future. A better idea would be to find the cause of why almost every player on the roster is currently underachieving.

[jjfanec]

Liability defensively? Gamel makes Braun look like Brooks Robinson. If we weren't overloaded with outfielders in the minors, Gamel would already have been moved.

That just isn't true. They both were bad defenders but Mat's numbers are getting better. His AA numbers are actually better than Braun's were at that level. Gamel did have a horrendous year last year, but there have been some bad defenders who have turned it around. The Cubs Aramis Ramirez is one of those guys. In one season of AAA he had 42 errors and he has become a decent defender.

 

[jazzytrav]

The Cubs Aramis Ramirez is one of those guys. In one season of AAA he had 42 errors and he has become a decent defender.

I thought there was a thread once talking about how D. Lee has been a big part of this for Ramirez. I can't imagine Prince having the same positive defensive impact that Lee has for infielders.

[GAME05]

we can't assume too much in comparisons of Gamel and Braun. we can't be sure one bit that even in a straight platoon situation that Gamel would be able to produce offensively like Braun did. despite mashing in AA, that's some pretty superhuman expectations to not only be ready for limited ML service, but to succeed as well.

 

i understand the thought of having Hall as a defensive backup for Gamel, but that starts to limit what Yost is able to do with bench players, that for any close game, he'd have to hold Hall as long as possible to be that late-inning defensive replacement. to a smaller degree than Hall, you'd still have to be able to count on Gamel to not botch things late in the game, because necessity is going to put him into those situations even if Hall is behind him.

 

"I would think at some point that Gamel or LaPorta become trade bait for more pitching prospects."

i don't see these players as mix and match at all as far as a trade goes, though i agree with the statement (hopefully Gamel and not LaPorta). LaPorta seems just slightly more developed offensively (albeit a lesser BA), and from what i understand, defensively as well. but it seems like the Brewers are doing a lot to create space in the OF if and when LaPorta is deemed ready to come up. You can't say the same thing about Gamel, who is a project to say the least at 3rd and hasn't learned the OF (yet?).

[And That]

Gamel makes Braun look like Brooks Robinson.

*I* don't make Braun look like Brooks Robinson.