Time to start looking at Melvin?

[Ennder]

the angels and cardinals come to mind. other players need to step up for the brewers

 

The Angels I agree with and they are one of the few teams who can survive it. They just have so much depth everywhere on that team. Don't get me wrong, Saunders and Santana are both showing they aren't as good as they pitched in April now and Mosely didn't really work out so it is hurting them as well.

 

The Cardinals had 0 pitchers go down. Mulder and Carpenter were already out before spring training and the Cardinals already worked on replacements. If we went into the spring training without Capuano and Gallardo I would feel very different about things. But we went in assuming they would be healthy.

[danzig6767]

Melvin has made plenty of mistakes, just like every other GM. All I think you can do is look at the financial resources a GM has and see what he's done with it in the short and long term.

 

For around $84 mil, Melvin constructed a team that was expected to win around 85 games and contend for the playoffs this year. Obviously, things haven't started off as you might have suspected but I can't fault Melvin for most of the offense doing as bad as they have so far. this past performance suggested much better things. Long term, he still has a bunch of these guys for several years, so that's a nice foundation.

 

If average is a C, I'd give Melvin a B-. Above average but not dramatically so. I certainly wouldn't be calling for his head.

My only issue with the above post is did Melvin construct the whole roster?

When i look at the Packers, i know Thompson is the one who drafts the kids, signs the free agents, and makes the trades. His hands are on every player on the roster.

With the Brewers, Jack Zduriencik not only drafted some of the young talent on the roster before Melvin got here, from what i've read, Zduriencik is still the guy running the draft. Looking at the roster, far and away, the largest chunk of talent is the young kids from the draft that Jack Z chose. Sheets is also as important than anyone else on the team, but he was inherited by Melvin.

If i thought Melvin was the guy who spotted and was the primary reason for drafting Prince/Braun/Gallardo/Hart/Hardy/Weeks, i'd be more inclined to saying he's done a really good job. Very few GM's though, especially on smaller market teams, have been able to be blessed with such a large amount of cheap young talent that a smart scouting director brought in. This has allowed Doug to have more money available to spend on other places, lessening somewhat the struggles a smaller market GM faces when putting together a roster that can win.

I certainly don't feel Melvin has done a poor job overall, but i do think his reputation is bigger than what he's actually done for the Brewers.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

When i look at the Packers, i know Thompson is the one who drafts the kids, signs the free agents, and makes the trades. His hands are on every player on the roster.

 

Do you really think he doesn't have scouting employees & the like? He's in 'control' of the draft just as Melvin is in 'control' of his draft. Sure, Melvin hasn't been alone, but no GM in any sport is. It's too big-busine$$ anymore to trust entire drafts to one or two guys. Also, it's Doug's call on who fills the scouting director spot. The fact that he retained a great talent like Zduriencik should be encouraging, and a sign that Melvin has a good feel for who evaluates amateur talent well.

 

Jack Zduriencik has had an awesome positive impact on this organization... but to simply say that the good players on the roster are due to Zduriencik and that Melvin is skating along with smoke & mirrors, coasting along on Jack's good work, isn't accurate imo.

[Ennder]

And like I said, I'm able to address opposing viewpoints with many others around here without all the anger I get from you. I've even received friendly PM's from my other debating opponents, so if it's not me, then that leaves one person...

 

As always, you're a delight!

 

And I've never had a problem with any other poster on this board either. The condescending attitude you take in this post pretty much sums up the problem in my mind, not sure how you call that 'friendly' and not sure where you get that I'm angry in my posts.

 

And by the way, what's healthier? Cracking a joke about a subject to lighten the mood, and moving on before it gets acrimonious, or entrenching for an aneurysm-inducing cage match pretty much every time?

 

Your jokes generally aren't meant to be funny, they are meant to be insulting. When I point to career ERA of 4 year pitcher and mention other things as well and you come back and crack a joke about Hideo Nomo's career ERA it isn't trying to be funny. It is belittling the argument and ignoring part of it. That isnt' healthy.

 

Dave Bush being a good pitcher or not isn't the topic btw, the best way to evaluate pitching in general is. I could really care less whether Bush stays in the rotation or not because he is just a #4 type pitcher without a ton of upside.

[JohnBriggs12]

As I recall, once Melvin lost out on Cabrera, he pursued two available closers, Gagne and Troy Percival but he backed off Percival because he wanted (and got) a 2 year deal.

 

It was a calculated risk that doesn't look good on May 12th but there's a lot of season left.

 

The Turnbow contract was plain bad. The guy had one good year. He overpaid for Counsell too. He made a bad deal for Linebrink. Even in his better deals, he always seemed to take add-on guys (Chad Moeller) that teams wanted to get rid of, and that negated some of the good from those deals.

 

It's a mixed bag overall. But to me, sooner or later a guy has to win. The longer a guy goes without winning, the less he deserves to stay around. To his credit (but with a huge assist from Jack Z) he has been able to turn the franchise from a bottom rung small market team to closer to a lower mid level revenue team. I'm not sure how long fans are going to stick with this bunch though. My hunch is not a whole lot longer as the price of food and gas rise, one area you can cut back is entertainment.

[logan82]

JohnBriggs12 wrote:

Even in his better deals, he always seemed to take add-on guys (Chad Moeller) that teams wanted to get rid of, and that negated some of the good from those deals.

How is getting more guys bad? If somebody is going to throw in a few more guys in a trade, I would take it as long as the players weren't a salary dump.

 

I will admit Moeller wasn't exactly great, but who did we have at catcher who was at that point.

[TooLiveBrew]

Plus the team wasn't in any position to compete... so having Moeller around didn't hurt anything.

[danzig6767]

When i look at the Packers, i know Thompson is the one who drafts the kids, signs the free agents, and makes the trades. His hands are on every player on the roster.

 

Do you really think he doesn't have scouting employees & the like? He's in 'control' of the draft just as Melvin is in 'control' of his draft. Sure, Melvin hasn't been alone, but no GM in any sport is. It's too big-busine$$ anymore to trust entire drafts to one or two guys. Also, it's Doug's call on who fills the scouting director spot. The fact that he retained a great talent like Zduriencik should be encouraging, and a sign that Melvin has a good feel for who evaluates amateur talent well.

 

Jack Zduriencik has had an awesome positive impact on this organization... but to simply say that the good players on the roster are due to Zduriencik and that Melvin is skating along with smoke & mirrors, coasting along on Jack's good work, isn't accurate imo.

Obviously Ted Thompson has quite a few scouts that provide input for Ted to take into evaluation when he decides who to draft. With that said, it is Thompson who makes the final call on any player drafted.

With the Brewers, not only were some of our young talent already drafted before Melvin got here, he said that he pretty much let's Zduriencik run the draft. I do give Doug credit for retaining Zduriencik even though it was almost a no brainer choice and for letting Jack do his thing, but i give Zduriencik the vast majority of the credit for the young talent on the roster.

 

Either way, there is more cheap young talent on the Brewers roster than almost any other roster except maybe Tampa Bay/Arizona. Mix in the payroll is no longer a joke, there aren't many excuses left for not winning. I'm not saying i'd fire Doug if the team misses the playoffs or finishes under .500 this year, but his leash would be getting very short.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

With that said, it is Thompson who makes the final call on any player drafted.

 

With the Brewers, not only were some of our young talent already drafted before Melvin got here, he said that he pretty much let's Zduriencik run the draft. I do give Doug credit for retaining Zduriencik even though it was almost a no brainer choice and for letting Jack do his thing, but i give Zduriencik the vast majority of the credit for the young talent on the roster.

 

He's been instrumental, but Melvin has final say when push comes to shove. I'm glad (as you are) that Doug has been wise enough to let Jack work, but to polarize all the credit to Zduriencik is really unfair imo. I think Doug did a great job this past offseason in filling holes on the MLB roster without giving up any of the prospects. Of course, he had some making up to do after the Linebrink fleecing.

 

EDIT: I especially agree with the bold-faced part

[DrWood]

I can't imagine anyone doing significantly better than Melvin. Certainly no one on these boards, myself included. thus, I guess I have to give the guy an "A". Humans aren't perfect.

 

Just think. We could have Steve Phillips as our GM. How do you think things would look now?

[datrain711]

the worst part is that we are one sheets incident away from this team potentially freefalling. Imagine the demands we will all have for Melvin if that happens.

Melvin has done an adequate job. Very little of the bad start has to do with him. Hopefully we can right the ship, and then all will "be alright" (at least until the next disaster)

 

I don't know about you guys, but to me it feels like we've gone through 2 full seasons already.

[danzig6767]

With that said, it is Thompson who makes the final call on any player drafted.

 

With the Brewers, not only were some of our young talent already drafted before Melvin got here, he said that he pretty much let's Zduriencik run the draft. I do give Doug credit for retaining Zduriencik even though it was almost a no brainer choice and for letting Jack do his thing, but i give Zduriencik the vast majority of the credit for the young talent on the roster.

 

He's been instrumental, but Melvin has final say when push comes to shove. I'm glad (as you are) that Doug has been wise enough to let Jack work, but to polarize all the credit to Zduriencik is really unfair imo. I think Doug did a great job this past offseason in filling holes on the MLB roster without giving up any of the prospects. Of course, he had some making up to do after the Linebrink fleecing.

I didn't say i give Zduriencik all the credit for the good drafting, just the vast majority of the credit. Doug has already said he doesn't have the time to go around scouting the incredible number of college and high school players out there that are needed in a 40 round draft. I'm quite sure though Melvin sits in meetings with Jack Z and the other draft scouts as they go over the draft and a plan is formulated on how at least the first few rounds might end up going. It just seems from what i've heard Melvin say that he leaves the vast majority of the draft in the hands of Zduriencik.

As you said and i agree with that if Melvin deserves any credit for the good drafting, it's that he's willing to let Zduriencik pretty much handle the draft instead of letting his ego get in the way and telling a proven scouting director who he has to pick. That's an admirable trait for a GM with some track record of past success in building a winner in Texas.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

I didn't say i give Zduriencik all the credit for the good drafting, just the vast majority of the credit

 

Very true, sorry.

 

 

It just seems from what i've heard Melvin say that he leaves the vast majority of the draft in the hands of Zduriencik.

 

I wonder how that heirarchy ends up working out... does Jack give Doug a phone call to confirm on draft picks? Is Doug there in the draft room? I just can't envision it being, 'Here you go, Jack, take the keys for this thing.' Not saying that'd be impossible or that it's not the way things run... I just know if I were in Doug's shoes, I'd want that final say, if only for the sake of orderliness.

 

 

if Melvin deserves any credit for the good drafting, it's that he's willing to let Zduriencik pretty much handle the draft instead of letting his ego get in the way and telling a proven scouting director who he has to pick. That's an admirable trait for a GM with some track record of past success in building a winner in Texas.

 

Yeah, I think that's one of my favorite aspects of Melvin -- no ego that he's 'the man in charge, so you'd better listen'. From day one, Gord Ash has clearly been a very active participant in the process, along with the aforementioned role that Zduriencik plays. Melvin certainly has had many chances to put more things/issues/problems on Yost, and has declined at every opportunity as best I can remember.

[ILuvDaBush]

Guys, you are also neglecting to mention Reid Nichols, who decides when to push a player up a peg. Again, Jack may shop for the groceries, but without a good cookbook, it's just a bunch of random ingredients. As for the Moeller pickup, I was behind his acquisition. He had shown a proclivity to hit in the desert and there were reports that pitchers really liked working with him, backed up by the fact that he became, in essence, Ben's personal catcher after we got Damian. Let's also remember that we picked up a scrap-heaped 4th outfielder and turned him into a ROY (if not for the abstract leg kick of a certain Fish turned Feline), then turned the ROY into a true "Middle-of-the-Order" bat, then turned a few months of that bat into a closer, a slick defending CF, and some big hats....oh and a LOOGy who will never taste the suds of Milwaukee. If not for a phantom concussion, I think most people would agree we would have WON our division last year, and how did we acquire the Concussed One? We got him...AND CASH....for Brian Wolfe. He took over an impossible situation and made hope an annual possibility...nay...expectation.

[TooLiveBrew]

Man, I always feel like I'm missing something with your nicknames http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[danzig6767]

It just seems from what i've heard Melvin say that he leaves the vast majority of the draft in the hands of Zduriencik.

 

I wonder how that heirarchy ends up working out... does Jack give Doug a phone call to confirm on draft picks? Is Doug there in the draft room? I just can't envision it being, 'Here you go, Jack, take the keys for this thing.' Not saying that'd be impossible or that it's not the way things run... I just know if I were in Doug's shoes, I'd want that final say, if only for the sake of orderliness.

I'm quite sure Doug is in the room during the draft, at least for the early picks. I'll admit that i'm speculating more than being positive i'm correct in regards to how exactly things go in the draft. I based my opinion on things i've heard Melvin say when it comes to the draft, but he never did say that i will never overrule Zduriencik. From what i remember Doug saying, the whole front office gets together and they talk about the draft, particularly the possible first few choices. That Melvin is fully informed on who Jack is mainly targeting with the high pick/picks, but that Doug let's Jack make the call because him and his scouts were the ones who went out and spent countless hours scouting these college/high school kids, not Melvin.

I do find the dynamics of how things actually go down in the draft pretty interesting and i wonder if Colby has a more firm grasp compared to my speculation. Say if Zduriencik was fully sold on Braun, but Doug didn't share the same excitement, how was that handled? If in this draft, Doug likes the idea of drafting one of the college closers with a sandwich pick, but Jack Z is less on board? Maybe later i'll ask Colby in the draft thread if he knows whether Doug has ever overruled a choice Zduriencik wanted to make.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Melvin is fully informed on who Jack is mainly targeting with the high pick/picks, but that Doug let's Jack make the call because him and his scouts were the ones who went out and spent countless hours scouting these college/high school kids, not Melvin.

 

If this is indeed the case (wouldn't surprise me if it were), that's an incredible amount of trust that DM puts in his assistants... and to be fair, a strong testament to Melvin's skill in assessing GMs/Talent evaluators himself.

 

Ahhh, to be a fly on the wall

[logan82]

the worst part is that we are one sheets incident away from this team potentially freefalling.

This is true, but that would be on top of 2 season ending injuries to pitchers who were expected to make the starting rotation out of spring training. I am not sure how many teams could do mush with 3 of their top 5 guys going down. I think Melvin would get a pass if Sheets goes down again.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"The condescending attitude you take in this post pretty much sums up the problem in my mind"

 

The fact that you consider the posts from a doofus like me you've never met, a genuine "problem" is...problematic.

 

"But like I said it is futile to try to discuss anything with you so I'm not getting into it again......

 

... not sure where you get that I'm angry in my posts.."

 

Must be my imagination.

 

"Your jokes generally aren't meant to be funny, they are meant to be insulting."

 

Also angry, but...

 

Feel free to take my jokes as insulting, but I try to lighten things up. If you WANT to feel miserable and take offense, it's gonna happen. Your choice.

 

"When I point to career ERA of 4 year pitcher and mention other things as well and you come back and crack a joke about Hideo Nomo's career ERA it isn't trying to be funny. It is belittling the argument and ignoring part of it. That isnt' healthy."

 

It's not belittling. I used a dead-on example of a pitcher with a better career ERA who's no longer that good. You just couldn't counter it. Accepting minor setbacks like that is healthy.

 

"And I've never had a problem with any other poster on this board either."

 

If that's so, then why were you given a warning by the mods for baiting Dave xis? Nice try.

[PeaveyFury]

This is a thread about Doug Melvin. Kindly stay on topic, everyone.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Does the outlook on Melvin change now after a 3-1 series win over St. Louis? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Invader3K]

"If Melvin doesn't extend Yost after this four game performance, he's an idiot."

[NievesNoNO]

I think Melvin has done a heck of a job. Have some of you forgotten that this team was pretty much the laughing stock of baseball only a few years back? Obviously, I'm sure he may like to change a few things in hindsight, but overall I think he's constructed a solid team. The bigger challenge might be sustaining and building on what we have now. To be fair, he's attempted to address all our needs in the off season. Whether they work out or not remains to be seen.

 

1. We improved our defense by adding Cameron and moving Hall back to 3rd.

2. He attempted a bullpen makeover.

3. We addressed our catching situation

 

For those of you that didn't agree with signing Suppan, Turnbow, Gagne, Cameron, Hall, what would have you realistically done different? Suppan's money is pretty much market value for a team that needed some consistency at pitcher. When Turnbow was signed he was pitching like an elite reliever. He also got a deal done with Sheets a few years back to try to keep an ace here. Really, I can't see any current contracts hindering future contracts with our young players. I'm all for giving Dougie a few more years to work everything out.

[DougJones43]

I think Melvin has done a heck of a job. Have some of you forgotten that this team was pretty much the laughing stock of baseball only a few years back?

This is Melvin's sixth year. There was talent in the farm system when he arrived, so it isn't exactly like he had to start with a bare cupboard like Dean Taylor did. The Detroit Tigers were a laughing stock in 2003 (43 wins), and they managed to get to the World Series within 3 years. The Diamondbacks won 51 games in 2004, and made the playoffs with 90 wins in 2007. The Rockies won 67 games in 2005, and made the World Series in 2007 with a 90-win season. These were all teams that relied on young talent, and filled in the gaps with veterans. They made it work in considerably less time. Both the Diamondbacks and Rockies had smaller payrolls than the Brewers last season.

 

How come all these other teams have been able to make quick progress (2-3 year turnarounds), but we're supposed to be thankful that Melvin got us 83 wins after 5 years?

 

 

To be fair, he's attempted to address all our needs in the off season.

So? Since when does a guy get credit just for "attempting" to do something?

[logan82]

I think we should keep Melvin. Looking at him, I think he has a really cool mustache. If he ever shaves it, then he has to go.