Time to start looking at Melvin?

[hauser42]

Jack Z the credit for getting CC who is kidding who?? Maybe Riske should get some credit since he but the big in Melvin's ear.

 

Melvin is the GM and the buck stops with him good or bad on all trades. His head is on the line with the moves not Jack Z. Yes Jack has helped load the farm system up with talent. He is not the only guy out on the road scouting the players, Brewers have a scouting department that does a lot of dirty work, then it goes to Jack, who goes to Melvin. From reading some of these pages you would think Jack Z is the only scout we have and makes every call at the draft table, this is just not true.

 

I love Jack Z but I'm sure there is a list ready incase he leaves.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Melvin should get credit for managing to convince Cleveland to do a trade earlier rather than later, especially since he managed to do so without severely overpaying. It certainly would have been in the Indians' interest to let the thing drag out and see who else would eventually get into the bidding.

 

He doesn't really deserve much credit for the price he paid, since by any reasonable estimation the Brewers are giving up at least a fair market value for a half-season rental of an unsignable superstar. But it's really tough to fleece the other guy on the "win now" side of these deadline deals, and fairly easy to get fleeced, so you can pat him on the back for not falling all over himself to include multiple prospects better than any single prospect anybody else was going to offer if you choose.

 

Heck, "falling all over himself to include multiple prospects better than any single prospect anybody else was going to offer" is a pretty good description of what was wrong with the Linebrink deal last year, so maybe he deserves some credit for learning from his mistakes.

 

For "winning the Sabathia sweepstakes", I'm with FtJ -- no credit, or very little. Jack Z. had armed him with a bazooka to bring to a pellet gun fight. It basically was as simple as deciding "Do I want Sabathia?" If Melvin answered "yes", only a total numbskull could have failed to get him. Still, like I said, props for ending the pellet gun fight early and cleanly, and for only using a few bazooka rockets when he could have easily burned the place to the ground.

[Fridge]

We've consistently been bad. There has been no progress in this area since DM has been here. I think we currently rank something like 26th in ERA after the 7th inning. I realize part of the problem is because Jack Z hasn't filled our farm with arms the past eight years but bringing in under performing players and hoping for a turn around isn't going to cut it anymore. If that means trading minor league resources for arms so be it.

 

It seems like everyone likes to blame DM and Ned for the BP problems all the time. It's good to see someone mention the fact that Jack deserves some of the blame for the BP problems as well. While JackZ has done a great job of providing the core players for this team and plenty of minor league assets, the one thing that has consistently been lacking from the Brewer's BP has been any home grown late inning guys. When is the last time we have had a major impact late inning guy that was drafted by the Brewer's?

 

[Postseason2006]

"When I was appointed general manager in 2003, I had to make many decisions," said Melvin. "The one I am most grateful for is retaining Jack Zduriencik as the individual responsible for the drafting and signing of amateur talent. Jack helps our organization in many other ways but has made his mark and finally is getting recognized for his hard work and ability to identify baseball talent. The Milwaukee Brewers organization recognizes Jack's skills and we thank Baseball America for honoring him with this well-deserved award."

 

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/content/printer_friendly/mil/y2007/m12/d04/c2316966.jsp

 

Funny of how those in Melvinland forget who was named executive of the year.

[logan82]

Fridge wrote

While JackZ has done a great job of providing the core players for this team and plenty of minor league assets, the one thing that has consistently been lacking from the Brewer's BP has been any home grown late inning guys.

That is always a criticism of Jack Z, pitching in general. Overall he has done a really good job with drafts, but specifically pitching has been bad.

[Postseason2006]

I'd take Sarfate right now over Gagme and Mota.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

It seems like everyone likes to blame DM and Ned for the BP problems all the time. It's good to see someone mention the fact that Jack deserves some of the blame for the BP problems as well. While JackZ has done a great job of providing the core players for this team and plenty of minor league assets, the one thing that has consistently been lacking from the Brewer's BP has been any home grown late inning guys. When is the last time we have had a major impact late inning guy that was drafted by the Brewer's?

 

Welcome, Fridge. This is a good point. The only thing I would add, more as a nuance to this position than direct disagreement, is that I think a big part of this problem has also been a failure on the part of the organization to recognize how most short relievers are developed. Aside from a handful of quick fix college closers, almost all short relievers are failed SP prospects that are converted to RP after having bombed in the bigs or in the high minors. The Brewers don't ever seem to be interested in doing this -- instead, they just give up on the guy and let him go for nothing or include him as a throw-in in some trade that could've happened without him (Zach Jackson, Dennis Sarfate, Dana Eveland being a few recent examples). It is tough to blame Jack Z. for that.

[bullox]

I'd take Sarfate right now over Gagme and Mota.

How about Grant Balfour ?

 

[Fatter than Joey]

Also I think it's pretty safe to assume they'll add a bullpen arm, so I don't get the point of saying now that Melvin should be fired if he doesn't address the bullpen.

 

Agreed. I hope you are right.

[TooLiveBrew]

I never ripped on DM vague or otherwise. I think my point was clear, that DM would not been able to pull off this deal w/o JZ doing his job

If you don't want to give him credit, that's fine... but that's where 'vague rip' came in. While I agree that Z & the scouting department provided him with the necessary ammo, I just think that Brawndo's point:

"Melvin should get credit for managing to convince Cleveland to do a trade earlier rather than later, especially since he managed to do so without severely overpaying. It certainly would have been in the Indians' interest to let the thing drag out and see who else would eventually get into the bidding."

Is where Melvin should get credit.

[Fatter than Joey]

How about Grant Balfour ?

 

27 Ks in 17 IP -- Yowza. Good for Grant, he got the shaft here, and I'm glad to see he is doing so well.

[zzzmanwitz]

How about Grant Balfour ?

 

27 Ks in 17 IP -- Yowza. Good for Grant, he got the shaft here, and I'm glad to see he is doing so well.

Balfour did get us McClung, we can't really complain too much.

[Fatter than Joey]

If you don't want to give him credit, that's fine... but that's where 'vague rip' came in.

 

That is entirely your imagination.

 

Balfour did get us McClung, we can't really complain too much.

 

I'm not complaining -- just sincerely happy Grant is punching people out like I knew he could;

[molitor fan]

This is one weird thread. It seems that some poeple need to have a black/white viewpoint of Brewers management rather than collaborative. Jack Z has been excellent, though he has made mistakes like Josh Murray too - he is not infallible. Likewise, Melvin has made some mistakes as well, but he has far more successes than failures, and as mentioned in postseason 2006's good comment (as opposed to postseason2006 calling Gagne, Gagme...can we put an end to that please), Melvin is more than willing to give Jack Z his proper plaudits.

[brewizard]

Jack Z has been excellent, though he has made mistakes like Josh Murray too - he is not infallible. Likewise, Melvin has made some mistakes as well, but he has far more successes than failures

 

And in a game where the best fail seven out of ten times, then that has to be good. Doug Melvin is a professional, baseball-smart GM. He's also pretty good with the purse strings. I'm happy he is here instead of elsewhere.

 

Sexson for the haul - all in all, a wash.

 

Remember that the Sexson trade helped get the Sabathia trade done. Sexson <-> Overbay <-> Zach Jackson <-> Sabathia.

 

If the Sabathia trade works, the balance in the Sexson trade shifts again. Melvin has a hard job.

[brewcrew00]

brewizard he helped, but don't make it out to be that Zach Jack was a main cog in the deal. He was a throw in and nothing more.

[homer]

I think saying the Sexson trade helped get Sabathia is kind of a stretch. It's not like Jackson was the key to the deal. He was a throw in. Probably could have just as easily been someone like Hammond.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

This is one weird thread. It seems that some poeple need to have a black/white viewpoint of Brewers management rather than collaborative. Jack Z has been excellent, though he has made mistakes like Josh Murray too - he is not infallible. Likewise, Melvin has made some mistakes as well, but he has far more successes than failures, and as mentioned in postseason 2006's good comment (as opposed to postseason2006 calling Gagne, Gagme...can was put an end to that please), Melvin is more than willing to give Jack Z his proper plaudits.

It's not so weird -- the thread was resuscitated after a week-long hibernation in order to address a pretty specific question: does the Sabathia trade change your assessment of Melvin?

 

A few of us are saying "not really" because a trade like this is only a good idea given the persistent strength of the farm system, which we already knew about and which we had already decided had more to do with Jack Z. than with Melvin.

 

I'd long since already handed Melvin his gold star for retaining Jack Z. when he was hired. Nothing much has changed about my assessment of Melvin's capabilities in the last week, except that there's now some evidence that he is capable of quickly pulling off a win-now deadline deal without obviously overpaying. I noted such in my post.

 

The Melvin / Jack Z. divide is, as you note, somewhat artificial, but they are separate dudes with different responsibilities, and the clean divide has to be invoked in order to explain why I'm not currently worshipping at the altar of Dougie.

 

I suppose there's that, and also the fact that the mainstream sports media and seemingly mostly everybody else is obsessed with an entirely imaginary notion of deadline deals as unstoppable forces of nature that irrevocably and fundamentally shift the course human history.

[Robideaux]

Remember that the Sexson trade helped get the Sabathia trade done. Sexson <-> Overbay <-> Zach Jackson <-> Sabathia.

If the Sabathia trade works, the balance in the Sexson trade shifts again. Melvin has a hard job.

 

I agree that Melvin has a hard job, but I don't think how CC Sabathia fares as a Brewer has any bearing on the legacy of the Sexson trade. Zack Jackson was a throw-in, a minor piece of the package. The trade would have happened without him. There were probably around 50 other players in our minor league system that could have been substituted.

[hurricanecrush]

Fatter than Joey wrote:Exactly -- and that's why DM should not get credit and JZ should. If DM would have landed CC for LaPorta+Bryson, then I would concede that DM had performed GM wizardry. DM had the most "prospect capital" to work with, which was the fruits of JZ's labor.

To play devil's advocate, I would argue that DM had to bail out JZ for not doing his job. If JZ had done his job properly, we would't have had to give up some of our future to go get a pitcher now. If JZ is going to get all of the credit he's been getting, he needs to take all of the blame for the lack of pitchers in our system.

 

In reality, JZ has done a good job of stocking the system with talent and DM has done a decent job of filling in the gaps with trades and free agent signings IMO.

[brewizard]

I only said Zach Jackson helped get the Sabathia deal done. From what I've read, the Indians have played up Zach Jackson as a bullpen pitcher who could possibly help the team THIS year. Jackson was once a good prospect in his own right (at the time that Overbay was traded, I remember hearing how Zach Jackson had the higher ceiling than Bush...), though his value has certainly diminished with his cups of weak coffee and his play of late. I'm not claiming that he was anything more than a throw in, and I also know that the Indians front office is saying anything to its fans right now to placate them. But the reality is that ZachJack came from Overbay which came from Sexson. And Zach Jackson was one of the chips traded away for Sabathia. Was he the big chip? Did I say he was? Could I be a self-respecting member of this board and honestly believe Zach Jackson netted CC Sabathia? I hope not.

 

Still, Zach Jackson could use a change of scenery, and the Indians are obviously willing to take a chance on him. There have been plenty of pitchers who have underperformed, then turned it around and been decent for a season or two before falling into mediocrity forever. Perhaps that's what the Indians are hoping for?

[CheezWizHed]

Ok, I'm done lurking. Been here for several years without posting (ok, I forgot my password for a while, but...)

 

Thought I would add my $0.02. I have zero knowledge of the inner workings, but like any other workplace the line has to blur between credit/responsibilty of any individual. JZ can't take all of the draft credit/blame, cause there is a whole team of scouts behind him. DM can't either. Personally I would be surprized if JZ didn't have some input into personel issues (like the trade) and I would be surprised if DM didn't have input into the draft.

 

CC came over because the cogs of the wheel were working, not because of any one cog.

 

I'm very pleased with JZ's work, pleased with DM's work, ok with NY's work, but since we are moving in the right direction, I say don't rock the boat.