Time to start looking at Melvin?

[sweepscc]

Think Mark A. would throw a butt load of money at Andrew Friedman and get him for GM?

[Invader3K]

Sure -- but we would have been better off to let Thatcher pitch, as SD did. Nothing that Linebrink was doing in SD indicated he was a solid pitcher.

Linebrink's career as a whole has indicated he's probably more than "a solid pitcher" as far as relievers go.

 

[Postseason2006]

Garrison (age) .

 

Why is this a negative? The guy is young and is pitching decent in AA ball. I guess I am lost on this one?

[Oldcity]

BTW...here's that scrub Inman's stats. 5 solid starts in a row. http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=William+Inman&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=488989

You sure seem to have a knack for twisting and exaggerating people's words. People say Inman doesn't have a high ceiling, and you turn that into a "scrub." People say they'd like Braun's OBP to be higher, and you claim they said he "stinks." Why can't you just address what people are actually saying rather than twisting others' words to make your stance look correct?

 

[Fatter than Joey]

Why can't you just address what people are actually saying rather than twisting others' words to make your stance look correct?

 

Thank you.

[Postseason2006]

People say Inman doesn't have a high ceiling, and you turn that into a "scrub."

Then quit using "the people say quote". People also said Greg Maddux doesn't have a high ceiling and Jake Peavy. People also say aliens exist. That schtick is getting old.

[Fatter than Joey]

Then quit using "the people say quote".

 

Here is what Stevo said:

 

"People say they'd like Braun's OBP to be higher"

 

People actually have said this -- it is fair game to debate.

 

No one on this board claims that "Braun sucks" or "Inman is a scrub". You have created those positions (strawman!) to make your position look stronger.

 

It is incredibly irritating and unfair.

[Invader3K]

Argh...not to get way off topic, but why do half the topics on this board have to devolve into debating semantics? I realize a poster on here was kind of going out of bounds, but it gets kind of old.

 

Anyway, the Brewers seem to be on track right now...I think we'll have a pretty good idea of Melvin's abilities to help the Brewers this year after July 31st.

[Postseason2006]

Going out of bounds? Arguing that people say Inman's ceiling is not very high is what kind of defense? That is calling Inman a scrub, no? But those same people still argue that Bush is a good pitcher.

 

The guy was drafted in the top 100 picks out of high school. What gets old is the consistent defending of Melvin on that trade and the same lame argument that we got two picks in return, no?

[homer]

Arguing that people say Inman's ceiling is not very high is what kind of defense? That is calling Inman a scrub, no?

Huge difference. A scrub is someone with NO ceiling.

 

The guy was drafted in the top 100 picks out of high school.

Matt Bush was picked #1 out of high school. Where is he? Anyway, the road is littered with top 10 picks that did nothing.

 

What gets old is the consistent defending of Melvin on that trade and the same lame argument that we got two picks in return, no?

Then you are only reading the posts you want to read because there are several people in this thread that didn't like that trade.

[PeaveyFury]

Arguing that people say Inman's ceiling is not very high is what kind of defense? That is calling Inman a scrub, no?

 

Actually, no. People saying Inman's ceiling isn't very high simply means that in the bigs they don't think he'll be more than a 4th or 5th starter. It's YOU that is assuming they mean he's a scrub as a result.

 

The guy was drafted in the top 100 picks out of high school. What gets old is the consistent defending of Melvin on that trade and the same lame argument that we got two picks in return, no?

 

Because if you're touting that Inman was drafted in the top 100 picks out of high school, don't you then also have to acknowledge that the two players picked with those two picks we got in return were ALSO picked in the Top 100 picks, one of them out of high school?

[Fatter than Joey]

What gets old is the consistent defending of Melvin on that trade and the same lame argument that we got two picks in return, no?

 

While I think DM made a bad deal here -- I do not think that defending the 2 comp. picks as a "lame argument" -- I don't agree with it, but I think it is an absolutely debatable and reasonable position to take.

 

I have seen Inman projected as a #2 starter all the way down to a BP pitcher like Heath Bell -- neither are/were scrubs.

[silversurferr]

Postseason2006, Thanks for correcting me; Garrison's age is a plus. However, I've not seen anything that says he is more than a middling prospect. (Roto: Garrison has earned a promotion. The 21-year-old lefty is 5-3 with a 3.09 ERA, 70 H and 65/21 K/BB in 78 2/3 IP in the Texas League. He could be a future fourth or fifth starter for the Padres.) I still think the trade was a well calculated gamble. But Thatcher is no better than Stetter, and Garrison will be pushing it to be a Villanueva or Bush or even Zach Jackson. Other Brewers pitching prospects will easily fill their shoes. If Inman turns out to be an all star, then Dougie and staff did a poor job evaluating their talent. That is the only way it becomes a bad trade.

[silversurferr]

I've said it before; Melvin is one the the 10 best GM's in the game. I was looking at Theo Epstein's trade history, and I (MY very subjective OPINION) did not see anything that was hugely impressive. Yeah, he got Beckett, but he gave up Ramirez.

In comparison, Dougie has absolutely fleeced the other side a number of times (Sexon; Lee; Lee for Cordero), and does a great job turning nothing into something (Turnbow, Kolb, Podsednik, Dillon, Kapler). He delegates authority to competent assistants (Jack Z. and crew!). He has not made any clunker trades. (For those who disagree, where are the all stars that he traded away? That's right, none. Guys like Lee were leaving anyway.).

So the only area of weakness seems to be free agent acquistion. Loss of Lee, Cordero, signing Suppan, Gagne. Not signing Arod types.

Without relying entirely on the "small market" argument, I think most right thinking baseball fans (that don't root for Boston or NY) would admit good teams are built from the farm and trades, and free agency is only good for finishing touches. As to finances, Attanasio sets the limits. If you give Melvin a blank check, would sign Santana? Of course. Anyone could make that decision. (The better question is whether he would pass on Zito.) But that is not reality; we are not Boston or New York, so we have to do it the smart way. Get off Melvin's back; he is doing a great job, and this is a good team. Besides, let's see what he does at the deadline so we have something to complain about next year!

[homer]

Yeah, he got Beckett, but he gave up Ramirez.

I don't think you have to rob another team in order to have a successful trade. The one mentioned here is probably the most evenly matched trade in recent memory - both teams came out ahead.

[Fatter than Joey]

DM has said, that he wants trades to work out for his trade partners, so they are eager to deal in the future.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I've said it before; Melvin is one the the 10 best GM's in the game.

I agree 100%. What Melvin has done with the limited resources he has compared to the Cubs and other large market teams is remarkable. I think the team is headed in the right direction with all of the draft picks generated from Linebrink and Cordero leaving (Melvin acquisitions). It doesn't hurt that he has Jack Z as his scouting director, but you can't do much more with the hand that Melvin was dealt than he has so far with the Milwaukee Brewers.

[DougJones43]

What Melvin has done with the limited resources he has compared to the Cubs and other large market teams is remarkable...you can't do much more with the hand that Melvin was dealt than he has so far with the Milwaukee Brewers.

I constantly see this angle, and I vehemently disagree with it. I'm going to re-post something I stated from earlier in this thread, to illustrate, once again, that you can do much more.

So does anyone give Melvin credit for bringing us from a 60 win team to an 83 win team in 5 years? What GM would have done better under the same circumstances?

The Twins went from 63 wins to 85 wins in 2 years. The Tigers went from 43 wins to 95 wins in 3 years. The Rockies went from 67 wins to 90 wins in 2 years. The Diamondbacks went from 51 wins to 90 wins in 3 years. Each of these teams have made playoff apperances during these spans as well. The Brewers have not.

 

Melvin getting the Brewers to 83 wins in 5 years (with a readily rising payroll' date=' and farm system stocked full of cheap talent) isn't as remarkable as many here want to believe. In fact, compared to what other teams have done under similar circumstances (the Rockies and D-Backs have had significantly less payroll money to work with), Melvin's improvement of the Brewers has been somewhat plodding and unimpressive.

[/quote']

[sweepscc]

I've said it before; Melvin is one the the 10 best GM's in the game.

I agree 100%. What Melvin has done with the limited resources he has compared to the Cubs and other large market teams is remarkable. I think the team is headed in the right direction with all of the draft picks generated from Linebrink and Cordero leaving (Melvin acquisitions). It doesn't hurt that he has Jack Z as his scouting director, but you can't do much more with the hand that Melvin was dealt than he has so far with the Milwaukee Brewers.

I believe there are GMs in MLB who would be doing more. Look what the Rays have done with half the payroll of the Brewers or even the Twins. We were going to increase our win total with or without Melvin because Jack Z was pumping our farm with talent, the question comes down to has Melvin added the right pieces in Free Agency signings and trades the past couple years. Mark A has given him money to use and thus far his acquisitions have been decent to crappy. The jury is still out but his late season move last year failed, hopefully he can get us over the hump this year.

[MickeyDavis]

San Diego was in the thick of a pennant race when they traded us Linebrink. That alone speaks volumes.

[TooLiveBrew]

Look what the Rays have done with half the payroll of the Brewers or even the Twins.

 

The Rays have had higher draft picks than the Crew in recent seasons. A better comparison (imho) would be the Pirates, who've done a poor job drafting nearly as high as TB each season.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Melvin's improvement of the Brewers has been somewhat plodding and unimpressive.

I think that is taking Melvin for granted and what he's done. Those teams you mentioned there like the Twins have gotten some very lucky breaks in the process that Melvin hasn't gotten. The Diamondbacks had a bigger pocketbook to go out and get Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling and the same applies to the Tigers because they are bigger markets. The fact that the Brewers are making more money than ever and might get 3 million people in the seats in the 2008 season is due to Doug Melvin building a talented team with great players to watch. The talent is here now that Melvin has gotten it. Now, it's just a matter of making it happen. If I'm going to give anyone heat for the Brewers under performing, I'm not going to blame Doug Melvin.

 

The Rays have had higher draft picks than the Crew in recent seasons. A better comparison (imho) would be the Pirates, who've done a poor job drafting nearly as high as TB each season.

Do you realize the number of high draft choices the Rays have gotten in the past 10 years from being so bad? This is why I'm so excited about the Brewers drafting 7 players in the first 3 rounds this year, because I see teams like the Rays and how good they can turn out to be. And guess who acquired all those draft picks? Mr. Doug Melvin.

[sweepscc]

Yes, the Ray's farm system has been as plentiful as the Brewer's but Friedman has also used some shrewd deals to help advance the big league team. Plus I can't stress enough, Friedman is fielding a more successful squad with half the payroll of Melvin. That's relative to us and the Mets or Red Sox.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Yes, the Ray's farm system has been as plentiful as the Brewer's but Friedman has also used some shrewd deals to help advance the big league team. Plus I can't stress enough, Friedman is fielding a more successful squad with half the payroll of Melvin. That's relative to us and the Mets or Red Sox.

Ok, but if you're going to make that comparison, you have to factor 2 things:

 

A) How high the drafts picks the Rays have gotten in the past few years

B) How many draft choices they've had in the past few years.

 

I would imagine both of those go in favor of the Rays over the Brewers.

[DougJones43]

Those teams you mentioned there like the Twins have gotten some very lucky breaks in the process that Melvin hasn't gotten.

Such as? You're probably going to need to provide some pretty good, specific examples to be able to chalk up the difference in these teams records the past handful of years to "luck".

 

Milwaukee W-L (2004-2007): 306-341

Minnesota W-L (2004-2007): 350 -298

 

 

The Diamondbacks had a bigger pocketbook to go out and get Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling

I was referring to their 2007 division championship, in which they had neither of those players. As far as pocketbooks go, the Brewers payroll was nearly $20 million more than the D-backs in 2007.