Time to start looking at Melvin?

[SoCalBrewfan]

Maybe I should start speaking Chinese so you understand clearer.

 

What you should do is start being nice. This sort of response is not acceptable.

[jazzytrav]

Maybe I should start speaking Chinese so you understand clearer.

Completely unnecessary.

 

The Brewers traded a 28-year old all-star first baseman coming off a .272/45/124 year with an OBP of .379 and SLG of .548. In fact, his 2 previous years were pretty similiar. So 3 years of an established player coming into his peak years.

 

They were not, no matter how much you want to believe it, trading the .205/.295/.399 player of 2007.

You can throw these stats out all you want, but you're just ignoring the fact that he was set to be a free agent and a long-term deal wasn't in the cards. The Brewers are not the kind of team that can offer long-term deals to 28 year old, all-star 1st baseman.

 

I won't get into another debate over Crapuano.

That's because you continue to lose that debate by ignoring the quality pitching we got out of Capuano.

[endaround]

Crapuano? Woohoo, thats some funny stuff there!

[jeffy]

I did find this:

Coming up through the minors, no one disagreed that Rickie had a great bat and tremendous talent, a sure fire bet to hit at every level right from the start. However, the knock on him was always that he was brutal defensively at second base, his projected position. Many, including Baseball Prospectus, projected him to eventually move to the outfield. In BP's opinion, his defense was enough of a handicap that they moved him all the way from #9 on their 2004 top prospects list to #36 in 2005.

http://fromrobintorickie.wordpress.com/2006/02/24/analyzing-rickies-defense/

It just seems like JJ Hardy and Rickie Weeks were given "dibs" on SS and 2nd by the Brewers. No matter what else happened, no matter how anyone else performed, they were determined to make this the middle infield of the future.

This http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=540326 also raised the question of why not move Rickie, instead. The reasoning for not doing it, really just seemed to come down to stubborness or Rickie's got "dibs" on 2nd.

[THEbrewguru]

If you think you can't get good value for a player entering his free agency year, then talk to Mike Lowell or Mark Mulder.

 

Melvin's insistence in getting major league caliber players (no matter how mediocre, see Lee, Carlos) instead of prospects with high ceilings is killing this team.

[TooLiveBrew]

The Lee deal was done with the intention of getting the '07 team into the playoffs imo. Melvin fell a few bad breaks from attaining that goal. I'm sure there's evidence to your point elsewhere, but that trade isn't a strong example (imo).

[logan82]

jeffyscott wrote:

But, I think Hall is a better infielder than outfielder and a better infielder than Braun or Weeks

Maybe I thought Hall was the DH. Even though Hall may be better than either Braun(he is) or Weeks(maybe, maybe not), he still shouldn't be in the infield. He trys to make throws he shouldn't and plays ground balls off to the side. Weeks and Fielder at least try to get in front of ground balls so they don't wave at them going by. All we did at 3B this year is go from historicly bad to bad.

 

Speed and hitting ability is like height in basketball, you just can't teach it. I have no problem with getting the best hitter and teaching him defense. It is alot easier to learn to track a fly ball then it is to teach a guy to hit a slider 400'.

 

I agree. The problem is that other than Hart, nobody stayed in the minors long enough to learn anything. I understand why all our players were promoted when they were, but I think our philosophy for drafting and developing young players needs some tweaking.

[THEbrewguru]

The Lee deal was done with the intention of getting the '07 team into the playoffs imo. Melvin fell a few bad breaks from attaining that goal. I'm sure there's evidence to your point elsewhere, but that trade isn't a strong example (imo).

TooLive: I said at the time that the trade was a PR move for the Brewers. If you remember, it "leaked" to the paper about a day before he was traded about the Brewers contract offer. The Brewers had finished at .500 the previous season and didn't want it to be perceived that they were selling off their assets for prospects, so they asked for "established" major league players. I put established in " " because Lance Nix is a classic AAAA player and Kevin Mench was a bald Kevin Reimer. Cordero, as I said before, was Texas' version of Derrick Turnbow.

 

But Melvin didn't want it to be perceived that he was waving the white flag. However, if you remember back, Corey Koskie had went out 2 weeks prior, Rickie Weeks went out earlier in the week so the team was greatly suffering from injuries. The Brewers were 11 GB and in 4th place at the time of the trade. No matter who you traded Lee for, the trade was ending the playoff hopes that season, IMO.

 

But I can respect your opinion on that one. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

I said the goal (imo) was playoffs for 2007, not 2006. I'm not sure what the Texas fans' opinion of Cordero has to do with things -- clearly the scouting department did their homework correctly on CoCo.

[THEbrewguru]

I said the goal (imo) was playoffs for 2007, not 2006. I'm not sure what the Texas fans' opinion of Cordero has to do with things -- clearly the scouting department did their homework correctly on CoCo.

Thought you said '06.

 

 

I think Texas fans opinion of Cordero correlated very closely to Milwaukee fans' view of Turnbow in '07. He had a very good season, but most people in this city think he was terrible.

[twobrewers]

I think Texas fans opinion of Cordero correlated very closely to Milwaukee fans' view of Turnbow in '07. He had a very good season, but most people in this city think he was terrible.

So do you want Doug to base trades off of fan perception?

 

So the coming decline of Sexson is irrelevant to any argument - but the Texas Ranger's fan's opinion of Cordero is relevant?

 

I understand your desire for "high ceiling" prospects. But that only pushes success farther and farther down the road. Not to mention, many "high ceiling" players fail to pan out. The Brewer's were able to get a year and a half of Cordero and will end up with two draft picks with a "high ceilings". So in the end, we got both.

It is important to remember that Doug has Jack Z at his disposal to help turn draft picks into those "high ceiling" players. I do not believe Doug would have signed Gagne for $10 million if he didn't think Gagne would leave via free agency and net the Brewers two draft picks. (Which seems very unlikely now)

Maybe I should start speaking Chinese so you understand clearer.

Actually, that would make this much harder. I don't speak Chinese.

 

It seems that you completely disregard scouting departments. If you sat down with Melvin and he told you that the scouts thought Sexson was going to struggle in the coming years and Cordero was going to rebound - would that justify either trade in your head?

[bklynbrewcrew]

The more Eveland pitches the worse that trade looks. We sure could use him in our rotation right now.

[Postseason2006]

No matter how you twist it, what we have showing for an All - Star first baseman that is willing to settle for a walk at the time, is a whole lot better than the complete junkpile of players mentioned. Ten years from now people will still remember Richie Sexson and no one will remember Ohka, Spivey, Crappy, Graffy, Bush, Jorge, and so on....

I loved watching Richie with the kids on Sunday's. Instead, you guys forget that little bit and his drive for the game. Instead, we have whiny at first worried about how much he's making. Yet, you heard about how Richie wanted to stay here.

[TooLiveBrew]

Ten years from now people will still remember Richie Sexson and no one will remember Ohka, Spivey, Crappy, Graffy, Bush, Jorge, and so on....

Who are these people and do they hang out with this guy --

http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2008/01/steve-jobs-hippie3.jpg


Prince Fielder spoke about his contract situation (iirc) once. In the context of being asked about it directly. Yet he gets piled on & called "whiny"

[jazzytrav]

I imagine 10 years from now Bush might still be pitching, and possibly Cappy. And I hate to say it, but the only reason Sexson will be remembered, besides from fans of the teams he was on, is as the guy with insane slugging stats for a guy that struggled to stay over the Mendoza Line.

 

No one was paying attention to Milwaukee while Richie was raking. Well, besides that thing about a baseball game that ended in a tie.

[Postseason2006]

Cappy? He's having TJ surgery again. He'll be lucky to be underhanding to his kids? And Bush? Yeah, he got sent down to minors this year and is lucky to be pitching in the majors.

[TooLiveBrew]

How you can talk out of one side of your mouth about how people are just ignoring that Sexson has passion & is a person... then make the snide comments about guys like Capuano & Bush is beyond me.

[PeaveyFury]

You can't say that Sexson's production after the trade is irrelevant while at the same time criticizing the performance of the acquired players since the trade. It's not apples to apples. You have to look at their value at the time of the trade if you're going to look at Sexson's value at the time of the trade. At the time the trade happened, they got an All-Star 2nd baseman, one of the top pitching prospects in all of baseball, a young catcher that looked somewhat promising, a young lefty starter coming off TJ surgery who had dominated at AAA and a young first baseman that was Major League ready but unproven, and essentially a salary throw-in in Counsell.

 

I'd say that at the time, it was a nice return on an All-Star 1B. Since that time, it's shown that Arizona lost the deal by default, and the Brewers have little left to show for it 6 years later, but for the first 1-4 years of the deal, it was a total steal for the Crew.

[logan82]

Even if we didn't get a good return on Sexson, what reason did we have to keep him? Even if Sexson was worth 2 more wins a year than all those players combined, we still would have had bad records.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Im not sure how anyone can say we didnt get a good return for Sexson. We got several good years from Capuano and Overbay. That alone makes the trade worth it.

[logan82]

bklynbrewcrew wrote:

Im not sure how anyone can say we didnt get a good return for Sexson. We got several good years from Capuano and Overbay. That alone makes the trade worth it.

I agree, just saying that we had nothing to gain from keeping Sexson at the time.

[Fatter than Joey]

Since that time, it's shown that Arizona lost the deal by default, and the Brewers have little left to show for it 6 years later, but for the first 1-4 years of the deal, it was a total steal for the Crew.

 

I have never understood the concept of "winning a trade".

 

It seemed obvious to me at the time, the Brewers were looking for some plug-n-play placeholders for Hardy/Prince/Weeks. They got Spivey/Counsell/O. Mission accomplished -- I don't think though DM committed highway robbery.

 

I think people are wrong to think DM screwed the D-backs, rather Sexson's injury did. Sexson had a 140+ OPS+ immediately before and after 2004, I think if Sexson would have been healthy and put up a +140 OPS+ they would do that trade again in a heartbeat.

 

The deal made sense to me at the time, and it still does today. The D-backs dead weight became our place-holders. I just don't think it was a genius move by any means.

[PeaveyFury]

I think people are wrong to think DM screwed the D-backs, rather Sexson's injury did.

 

Sure it did, and I think there's not a whole lot of people that would argue otherwise, I'd think. At the time, it was probably a fair trade for both sides, and now in retrospect, the D-Backs gave up a very large sum for 90 AB's.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

So does anyone give Melvin credit for bringing us from a 60 win team to an 83 win team in 5 years? What GM would have done better under the same circumstances?

[DougJones43]

So does anyone give Melvin credit for bringing us from a 60 win team to an 83 win team in 5 years? What GM would have done better under the same circumstances?

The Twins went from 63 wins to 85 wins in 2 years. The Tigers went from 43 wins to 95 wins in 3 years. The Rockies went from 67 wins to 90 wins in 2 years. The Diamondbacks went from 51 wins to 90 wins in 3 years. Each of these teams have made playoff apperances during these spans as well. The Brewers have not.

 

Melvin getting the Brewers to 83 wins in 5 years (with a readily rising payroll, and farm system stocked full of cheap talent) isn't as remarkable as many here want to believe. In fact, compared to what other teams have done under similar circumstances (the Rockies and D-Backs have had significantly less payroll money to work with), Melvin's improvement of the Brewers has been somewhat plodding and unimpressive.