4/22/07 Astros (Oswalt) @ Brewers (Bush): 1:05 PM CDT

[littledoc83]

Braun with another HR today.

[PeaveyFury]

So I can be a better baseball fan if I blame managers for everything?

 

I didn't say that at all. I said you can be a better baseball fan if you acknowledge that managers make mistakes sometimes. Bringing in Aquino Friday was a mistake, as was leaving Bush in so long today.

 

The players fail, but the managers can set them up to fail sometimes, like Ned has done a couple of times this series.

[jlau20]

Just got back from the game...checking in here, seems like alot of people were talking down on Ned for no reason today, didn't read all the posts so forgive me if I'm overstating by saying alot.

 

But, taking Jenkins and Gross out in the bottom of the 8th is a ridiculous idea, the team is up 4-0 and the pitcher is lights out. Not even a question there, plus Jenkins was 3-3 until that point (albeit against a righty).

 

Leaving Bush in for the 9th wasn't a question either, somewhere around 85-90 pitches, if I remember correctly, another no brainer.

 

I didn't like Ned's decision with Aquino on Friday, but this game was perfect until the top of the 9th, and today there was nothing Ned could do about it, if they would have lost the lead it would have been on Coco's shoulders anyways, not Ned's.

 

Great game, we'll take the win!

[jlau20]

On top of that, even once Bush let a few guys on in the 9th, he was getting strikeouts and groundouts today and shouldn't have been an immediate concern for Ned.

[Ennder]

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Bringing in Aquino Friday was a mistake, as was leaving Bush in so long today.

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According to you they were mistakes, thats the problem. Not everyone agrees with you. There simply was nobody better to bring in on Friday and today well I'd have taken Bush out after the walk but others expressed they wouldn't have. Thats the problem, you are all getting on Yost over questionable calls that can go either way.

 

You tell me what you would have done on Friday. Keep in mind Turnbow was unavailable, Coco was used two days in a row and they really didn't want to use him, Wise had already thrown 18 pitches which is about his limit, Dessens is the long man, CV pitched the day before and they don't like to pitch him back to back days yet and they didn't have lefties coming up for Shouse. Why is using the guy you do have available so wrong that Yost is a bad manager? I just don't get it.

[Tailgat0r76]

Yeah I think theblingster is right on there; leave Billy in, and put Gwynn in and you have the best possible range out there to assure only singles are hit.

 

 

I have to say, I can't really put much on Yost here, and I'm usually one that's pretty critical of his moves. I may have pulled Bushie after having 1st and 2nd runners, but overall he was sort of stuck as to his options.

 

 

Think of it this way, who realistically thought we would be oswalt today? Very nice win, and series win!

[Tailgat0r76]

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you are all getting on Yost over questionable calls that can go either way.

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I would agree with you in some instances, but putting Aquino in when the game is on the line twice in a row? Most people don't think that can go either way...

[bobskube]

You know what I think...

 

I like to see a little spunk from our fans and friends on this site during a tense situation. It shows good passion. I didn't take any of the comments in a negative way. In a game like this, there is plenty of intensity going on.

 

Let's move on and keep it as clean as possible understanding the fact sometimes things get a "little" frenzied. I do understand that there is a line and that was a borderline ball like that last pitch to Lee today.

[PeaveyFury]

There simply was nobody better to bring in on Friday

 

Since Cordero was warm in the pen, I strongly disagree.

 

You tell me what you would have done on Friday.

 

I'd have let Wise pitch, and if they were determined to make a change, pitched Cordero. Or let Aquino start the inning clean. Anyone of those three moves would have been better than what they did.

 

Wise had already thrown 18 pitches which is about his limit

 

18 pitches isn't even a full inning, normally. I'd like to see some source that confirms that is his limit.

 

And if there is something that says that, there should be more questions being raised as to why Wise was even allowed to start the inning, as he threw a whopping two pitches prior to getting lifted. If it was truly a pitch-count related pulling, then that makes even less sense.

 

Why is using the guy you do have available so wrong that Yost is a bad manager?

 

I have NEVER said that Yost is a bad manager, I actually think he's 2nd in the division behind Tony. But it IS ok to admit that he does make a bad decision occasionally, rather than trying to defend the indefensible.

[Ennder]

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I would agree with you in some instances, but putting Aquino in when the game is on the line twice in a row? Most people don't think that can go either way...

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Then answer my question, who would you have used? Keeping mind the things i posted above.

 

The first time he used Aquino in a close game Aquino had looked good, was throwing strikes (66% of his pitches had been strikes so far on the year), his slider was showing good movement.

 

In that game Wise had pitched the two previous days and it was the 7th inning. Now personally i bring in Turnbow so I agree with people there but many managers don't like taking players out of their roles so its hard to get too down on Ned over it.

[MrAgro]

I thought Ned did a fine job as far as I could tell, but when Bush started letting guys on in the ninth I had to see what the heck was going on. When there were 2 on and he was still in the game is the point I believe I said "I officially disagree with Ned".....without seeing the game on TV my guess was that he was out of gas.

 

So by giving Buch 'a chance' to keep the shutout, he essentially took away 'the chance' for Cordero (or whoever) to come in with much less pressure. That's my take on things. IMO Ned likes to give guys every opportunity to get'er'done; the only problem with that is that it puts more pressure on the rest of the guys when he finally has to yank Bush.

 

4-1 with two guys in scoring position and Carlos at the plate is much higher pressure.... than 4-0 with a runner on 1st and 2nd.

[Tailgat0r76]

When the game is on the line, you put you're absolute best pitcher in there, correct?

 

Cordero should have been pitching. Hands down

[Ennder]

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When the game is on the line, you put you're absolute best pitcher in there, correct?

 

Cordero should have been pitching. Hands down

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So should Cordero pitch tomorrow if its close in the 9th?

 

I would agree with you if Cordero hadnt' pitched two days in a row but I'm not bringing my closer in a 3rd day in a row in the top of the 9th of a tie game when facing the bottom 3 in their order. You have to have at least a little faith in your other RP's so you aren't blowing your closer in situations like that.

 

Peavey, I actually did a double take when I saw Wise go back out there for a 2nd inning. They said they are going to try to keep his pitch counts down to keep him healthy.

[Tailgat0r76]

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many managers don't like taking players out of their roles so its hard to get too down on Ned over it.

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That still doesn't make his moves better because most managers don't do it. It also isn't a justifying reason when we complain about his moves.

[Ennder]

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That still doesn't make his moves better because most managers don't do it. It also isn't a justifying reason when we complain about his moves.

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It does say that conventional wisdom is not to do it though. I can't call Yost a bad manager because he makes the same moves that most managers in baseball make. That doesn't make much sense to me. If he can bring himself to actually do it, it makes him a good manager.

[Tailgat0r76]

I think we're babying a very good closer a little too much here. His two days before were fairly easy innings where he had pitched 20 or less in both (if I remember correctly) I would not pitch Coco tomorrow but only because he's pitched about 60 pitches in two days now. It's a little different, in my mind at least.

 

 

Remember when T-bow closed 5 games in a row? It's not impossible to pitch 3 days in a row...

[Tailgat0r76]

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I can't call Yost a bad manager because he makes the same moves that most managers in baseball make.

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You're putting words in a lot of people's mouths though. I don't recall anyone straight up saying "Ned Yost is a bad manager"

[Ennder]

Yes but would you pitch 3 days in a row when you have a tie game and are facing the bottom of the order? Turns out the next two days they needed him as well so that would have been 5 games in a row or he's unavailable for one of those two games when its close.

 

After the game Yost said he'd have used Cordero against the middle of the order, that makes complete sense to me. If your RP's can't get out Burke, Everett, Ausmus and Lamb who are all below average hitters than I think its your bullpens fault more than the managers fault. I think letting him face Biggio was a mistake, a big one. I disagree with just putting him in being a mistake.

 

Then you have guys like Blazer saying its the single dumbest thing he's ever seen any manager do and guys like endaround who can't make a post without saying Yost sucks because of the move. It may be a questionable move but its nowhere near as bad as the hindsight knee jerk reactions of some of the posters.

[Tailgat0r76]

While I agree with some points in that, I still don't think you can take any batter for granted when the game is on the line. I guess I would rather win the game at hand then worry about tomorrow. Tomorrow we could be winning 12-0 after the first inning and never need anyone but elmer and carlos. Tomorrow we may throw a complete game, you never know

 

I sure hope Ned doesn't think too much about the next day when making pitching changes

[PeaveyFury]

I would agree with you if Cordero hadnt' pitched two days in a row but I'm not bringing my closer in a 3rd day in a row in the top of the 9th of a tie game when facing the bottom 3 in their order.

 

If they had no intention of pitching him, he wouldn't have been warming in the first place. If the Brewers would have scored in the bottom of the 8th, Cordero would have been in for sure.

[brewmann04]

whew whata game especially in the 9th but i take the win and very happy to be in 1st place. I can"t you see blaming Yost for keeping Bush in today game.

I also agree Bow will be the guy to close out tomoorow night game if needed.

[olliegjw]

The players fail, but the managers can set them up to fail sometimes, like Ned has done a couple of times this series.

 

Yeah, like bringing Cordero in in the 9th inning when it became a save situation. How dare Yost put Cordero in such a situation. He should only bring him in when they're up by 3 and there's nobody on base. That would make it easier.

 

So Yost let Bush pitch to 3 batter instead of 2. Guess we are setting our closer up to fail when he comes in with the tieing run at the plate. THAT'S WHAT CLOSERS ARE FOR!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yost was trying to give his overworked relievers a bit a of a break. It didn't work out, and they still won the game. It's not like he left Bush out to dry.

[Tailgat0r76]

I would agree completely with you olliegjw. He put Coco out there in a bad situation, but there was nothing he really could have done otherwise. I would've let Bushie continue to pitch as well. Like you said, maybe a shorter leash, but I think he managed fairly well today, just not very many options

[PeaveyFury]

Yeah, like bringing Cordero in in the 9th inning when it became a save situation. How dare Yost put Cordero in such a situation. He should only bring him in when they're up by 3 and there's nobody on base. That would make it easier.

 

I don't think that was said in one place during this thread. If it was, kindly point me to it. I think everyone was in agreement that Cordero was the right move, the question is why he waited so long to do it.

[BrewCrewForever]

Yeah I have to say I think Yost waited a bit to long to pull Bush for Cordero. And once he put Cordero in it was in a tough situation, but Cordero like the pro he is pulled it out. I have to imagine that it is a lock Cordero will not pitch tomorrow and if a save is needed it will be Turnbow.