No choice now... (Sheets extension)

[bklynbrewcrew]

If this team goes into next season with a rotation of Gallardo, Suppan, Villy, Parra, and Bush they are basically giving themselves no shot of being a playoff team. You cant win with a number 1 and 4 4th and 5th starters in your rotation. We need to resign Sheets because we have absolutely no viable way of replacing him unless we want to overpay with a Suppan type FA. Melvin has always been good about putting together an everyday lineup back to his Texas days but he has never put together a top flight rotation. I still remember his Texas teams starting John Burkett in game one of the playoffs. Somebody needs to tell this guy that pitching wins championships and guys like Ben Sheets dont grow on trees. Yes resigning Sheets is risky but the alternatives are far far riskier in my opinion.

[TooLiveBrew]

I still remember his Texas teams starting John Burkett in game one of the playoffs. Somebody needs to tell this guy that pitching wins championships and guys like Ben Sheets dont grow on trees.

 

I think Melvin is fully aware of pitching's value. What you neglect to mention is that Melvin's tenure in Texas produced the franchise's only 3 playoff appearances. I'm sure that there were players he didn't bring in that were key in Texas, just as that is the case now. However, I also don't believe that there's any coincidence that Melvin is here, and has helped the Brewers improve to a playoff-caliber team.

[bklynbrewcrew]

TLB, I am one of Melvins biggest fans and overall really like what he has done, most notably having the foresight to keep Jack Z on board but he does have his weaknesses. He has never shown the ability to put together a strong pitching staff and letting Sheets leave as a FA is not going to help that cause.

[BrewCrewBaseball]

What we need to do is make a trade and get another number 1 starter, let Sheets go after the season and go with a new 1-2 punch at the top of the rotation. Was talking to other guys on other sites. Maybe try to get Oswald from Houston? Someone along that line. Take the hit on the payroll to save the season if it starts looking bad and have a guy in place to compliment Gallardo next season... Were going to lose close to 30 million in payroll with Sheets, Cam and Gagne off the books...

[logan82]

BrewCrewBaseball wrote:

Were going to lose close to 30 million in payroll with Sheets, Cam and Gagne off the books...

and probably gaining $12M+ with arbitration for Fielder, Weeks, ect. I would gladly sign Sheets to a 3 years deal at whatever it takes, but I doubt he would accept anything under 5 years. The only way we retain Sheets is if has a season ending injury in the next few weeks. Then we woudl be able to sign him to a one year contract for only a few million at most.

[Roscoe Chill]

The only way we retain Sheets is if has a season ending injury in the next few weeks. Then we woudl be able to sign him to a one year contract for only a few million at most.

 

And why on earth would you want Sheets after this year, if he were to go down with a season ending injury? His fourth year that he'd be marred by injuries in the four years since he signed his last big contract? I mean, enough is enough if that were to happen. Sure, he's a #1 front line starter. But who cares if your team can boast that you have a legit #1 starter.....on the DL?

[hauser42]

Melvin & Co.'s decision to backload Suppan's contract was brilliant foresight

Brewers had to get a proven arm that could eat up innings. Take a look at what other free agent SPs got that off-season and we got him at market value. Suppan has given this team what it needed, if Brittle Ben had been eating up innings before that off season maybe the Brewers could have passed.

No way should Brittle Ben be signed to a big long term deal. He is a injury risk and doesn't matter how freaky they have been, those injuries have hurt the Brewers each time he went down. Brewers can not afford a guy that has not shown he can stay healthy all year.

[logan82]

NDOG44 wrote:

And why on earth would you want Sheets after this year, if he were to go down with a season ending injury? His fourth year that he'd be marred by injuries in the four years since he signed his last big contract? I mean, enough is enough if that were to happen. Sure, he's a #1 front line starter. But who cares if your team can boast that you have a legit #1 starter.....on the DL?

I would sign almost anybody with Sheets potential to a one year deal at $3-$4M as long as they were going to be healthy by the start of the season.

[wallus]

I think Melvin was just going to use the money that we are going to save from Cameron and Gagne and use that difference to give to Sheets. Some people are definately underestimating how difficult it is to get a pitcher of Ben's ability.

[hauser42]

I think Melvin was just going to use the money that we are going to save from Cameron and Gagne and use that difference to give to Sheets. Some people are definately underestimating how difficult it is to get a pitcher of Ben's ability.

Depends on wich ability you are talking about. The one that finds his way yearly to the DL and hurt the team by not eating up the innings he is paid for or the one that could be an all star year in and year out.

[dlk9s]

The Brewers can defiantly resign Sheets, though I hope they could work something out before this season's end.

"All the naysayers said it couldn't be done. Well look here, you Doubting Thomases! We re-signed him!"

 

[Roscoe Chill]

I would sign almost anybody with Sheets potential to a one year deal at $3-$4M as long as they were going to be healthy by the start of the season.

 

Yeah right. $3-$4M? You've got to be kidding. That's the cost of Turnbow, Vargas, Capuano, Mota, and so on and so forth. You really think Sheets is going to come at 1/3 of the cost of Eric Gagne for one year? Come on. Of course it'd be nice to see the Brewers sign Sheets at that price. And at that price, it wouldn't be such a shot in the nuts every time he would go down. At that price you can pretty much say anything you get from him is gravy...and it'd be worth it.

[Tbadder]

I don't think there is any "now" any more. The Crew needs to think long term, so moves that are made in response to this injury will be a mistake I believe. We've got three starters soon to be in Milwaukee--LaPorta, Gamel, and Escobar. If we are dealing lets deal from strength next year after those three have proved themselves for a third to half of a season in AAA. Let Sheets and Gagne walk if they're classified Type A free agents, and then start in this year's draft a major push in the pitching department that continues until we build a pipeline for pitchers like we have for hitters (I know, I know easier said then done). If we can deal Hall, Hardy, and Hart for immediate help (assuming LaPorta, Gamel, and Escobar prove themselves) while locking up Fielder and Braun long term, I see no reason why the Brewers can't be competitive for the better part of a decade.

 

I think the exception to this would be dealing Sheets to someone like the Yanks if a top flight-one-year-away major league starter is available.

 

Just a thought.

[Mr QL]

I'd like to see what we can get for Sheets come the deadline and for him to get through the season healthy before offering him a ridiculous contract.

[Brewer Fever]

I think the Brewers will be sellers at the deadline. Hopefully Sheets is healthy and productive to that point. If that scenario does play out, you trade Sheets for a king's ransom.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

As pointed out, the issues of this year and next are mutually exclusive. For this year, the Brewers chances have taken a serious hit without Yovani. It seems apparent that the 2-5 starters continue to have issues pushing past the 5-6th innings, much like last year. Villy & Parra should continue to develop over time so there is promise. Soup is exactly what should have been expected based on his history, which is fine and Bush is Bush...a marginal 5th starter. There are players that could be brought up, but I wouldn't expect their performance to be any better than what we've got in '08. If Ben stays healthy, we'll get a solid start every five days. Maybe we split the other starts and can get 85-90 wins, but my guess is the bullpen wears down like last year. It's going to be tough and frankly Melvin is right, there aren't alot of great options out there.

For the future, whether it's Sheets or not, we need a quality 1-2 starter to pair with Yovani and that assumes he comes back as good as new. We haven't had a great deal of time to test it, but I think a healthy Sheets & Yo would have been the best top two starters in the NL Central or at least up there with the others. Thinking back to a pair like Randy Johnson & Schilling, a team can go a long way with two studs at the top of the rotation. It doesn't have to be Ben, but it has to be someone. Banking on our 2-5 guys or someone in Huntsville is a stretch. We will need a top flight starter. We have more depth between the team and prospects with the position players. At some point we may need to make a move.

If we are out of it this year, sadly trading Ben may make sense as well. The only way I could see keeping Ben, would be for him to accept a below market deal because he wants to stay in Milwaukee. I don't see that happening.

[wallus]

I think Melvin was just going to use the money that we are going to save from Cameron and Gagne and use that difference to give to Sheets. Some people are definately underestimating how difficult it is to get a pitcher of Ben's ability.

Depends on wich ability you are talking about. The one that finds his way yearly to the DL and hurt the team by not eating up the innings he is paid for or the one that could be an all star year in and year out.

I would much rather have Sheets and put up with the few starts a year he could potentially miss than have a couple of draft picks. I would MUCH rather use the money we will have on Ben and save our trade pieces. My plan would be to let Gagne walk, try to trade Soup and sign Ben to a 4 year contract. What do we do if Ben leaves? Are there really going to be free agent pitchers that will come here and be as good for not the same money?

[Roscoe Chill]

But it's not a "few" starts a year. It's about 1/3 of his starts over the last three years. As much as I dislike Ned Yost, and as much as I think Yost was at fault and a big part of the Brewers collapse last year, obviously the biggest reason the Brewers lost the division last year was the fact that Ben Sheets wasn't available for 7 weeks in July and August.

[wallus]

But it's not a "few" starts a year. It's about 1/3 of his starts over the last three years. As much as I dislike Ned Yost, and as much as I think Yost was at fault and a big part of the Brewers collapse last year, obviously the biggest reason the Brewers lost the division last year was the fact that Ben Sheets wasn't available for 7 weeks in July and August.

Most pitchers miss some starts each year. It is easy to forget the freak injuries Ben has had and say that his ear infection is the same as a shoulder injury. Everyone fails to mention what we are going to do without him? Free agent pitching will get you average starters for big money usually (at least the trend lately). I guess I would rather have Ben, Yo, Villy, Parra and Bush (trade Soup). Right now, Ben is our only innings eater, meaning he has the potential to get 8 or 9 innings if need be. Our bullpen is gonna be in a huge amount of hurt unless we get pitchers like that.

[Ennder]

But it's not a "few" starts a year. It's about 1/3 of his starts over the last three years. As much as I dislike Ned Yost, and as much as I think Yost was at fault and a big part of the Brewers collapse last year, obviously the biggest reason the Brewers lost the division last year was the fact that Ben Sheets wasn't available for 7 weeks in July and August.

 

Capuano and Gallardo will both have missed as much time as Sheets over the last 4 years now, Parra probably has as well. Pitchers get injured, it is a fact of life in baseball. Any pitcher we sign long term is incredibly risky. I don't really want to sign Sheets but I just think the whole injury prone thing is so overplayed.

[endaround]

Sheets low for innings pitched (at all levels) was 129 in 2006 outside of his partial rookie season. Manny's max is 138 in 2003 in Beloit

 

And I don't know how many times it must be mentioned, Bush is not a marginal 5th starter. He's league average making him a decent 3 and a great 4.

[kramnoj]

"My plan would be to let Gagne walk, try to trade Soup and sign Ben to a 4 year contract. "

 

I agree with much of what you wrote, but who do you have in the rotation if you trade away Suppan? Do you have confidence in a more expensive Bush, or one of the minor leaguers becoming a major league regular? Or do you think we can get a similar pitcher to Suppan for less money?

 

I guess this is the tough thing about hitting the payroll limits, you have to choose where you want to be weak. If you retain Sheets and Suppan, we have to rely on younger players in our bullpen.

[Roscoe Chill]

Capuano and Gallardo will both have missed as much time as Sheets over the last 4 years now

 

Capuano is done. His career (at least in Milwaukee) is over. Before his injury, his performance dictated that he is done. Before this season's injury, the only real time Capuano missed was when he sucked terribly last year and they removed him from the rotation. Injuries before he got to Milwaukee? Fine, that's not in the last four years. Just a false statement.

 

Yes, pitchers get hurt, but PLEASE stop insinuating that Ben Sheets health over the last four years is normal for any pitcher. It's untrue and annoying.

[wallus]

"My plan would be to let Gagne walk, try to trade Soup and sign Ben to a 4 year contract. "

 

I agree with much of what you wrote, but who do you have in the rotation if you trade away Suppan? Do you have confidence in a more expensive Bush, or one of the minor leaguers becoming a major league regular? Or do you think we can get a similar pitcher to Suppan for less money?

 

I guess this is the tough thing about hitting the payroll limits, you have to choose where you want to be weak. If you retain Sheets and Suppan, we have to rely on younger players in our bullpen.

I have confidence in Bush because he is not awful when you look at the league as a whole. My opinion is that we wouldn't have to have as strong of a bullpen because hopefully Sheets and Gallardo are going deep into games.

[PeaveyFury]

Before this season's injury, the only real time Capuano missed was when he sucked terribly last year and they removed him from the rotation.

 

Capuano only made 17 starts in 2004 due to being placed on the DL 3 times that season, and was also on the 15-day DL at one point in 2007.

 

Yes, pitchers get hurt, but PLEASE stop insinuating that Ben Sheets health over the last four years is normal for any pitcher. It's untrue and annoying.

 

That is true that it's not normal- normally when pitchers get hurt, they miss large chunks of the season with a major injury or spend a 15-day DL trip for minor stuff. Despite all of Sheets' injuries, he still manages to make 2/3 to 75% of his starts, which makes him more productive during a year, but also makes it more frustrating since it's multiple injuries/DL trips in a season.