Gallardo injury: Has torn ACL, placed on 15-day DL; Bush recalled (reply #32)

[lcbj68c]

Maybe you would have been. I would have seen Yost trying to prevent further injury. The collision was pretty violent, I don't think taking Yo out would have been controversial at all.

You can't be serious. Any situation involving Ned Yost results in controversy. Every freakin situation. I overheard the players in the locker room last week and they immediately turned the finger on Ned Yost about who left the dookie stain in the clubhouse toilet. Ned Yost's wife even blames him for burning the post game meal when he returns from the ballpark, and he wasn't even home.

[xisxisxis]

Most managers are going to leave players out there when both the player and trainer say they're good to go. If you disagree with this, your disapproval should be directed at coaches in general, not just Yost.

 

Remember a guy named Nick Neugebauer? He said he was fine several times when he was pitching with an injured shoulder. Turned out pretty bad for him and it didn't help the Brewers organization to lose their #1 prospect because he *said* he was fine.

 

Remember Jeffrey Hammonds. Didn't bother to tell anyone his shoulder was screwed up royally after his "career" year. Got a big fat contract and the Brewers got a big fat negative.

 

Players aren't upfront about their health for various reasons and in the end the team suffers as much, if not more, than the player. I never played much past high school in any sport, but I sure as heck wasn't going to tell my coach/manager that I couldn't go if I could stand. There's a lot of reasons for not getting accurate information from a player that simply taking there word isn't advisable. That's not a Nedly specific problem, but I do think it was short-sighted to have left him in the game. It wouldn't have made a difference with him going on the DL, but it may be the difference between him being ready in 9-12 months vs. 12-15 months.

[BadgerTodd]

But objectively, I really see no way this team can make the playoffs now without corresponding injuries to other teams.

 

Objectively, of course the Brewers have a chance of making the playoffs even without corresponding injuries to other teams. The question really is, how big of a chance? If the Brewers are a .500 team without Yo (which is a very reasonable assumption, IMO), they'd finish with 83 wins on average. How often would a .500 team finish with 90 wins (and a good shot at the playoffs) in the Brewer's situation just from luck? They'd have to finish 74-60, which is 7 more games than expected. Works out to 13%. Of course, they also have a 13% chance of finishing with a 60-74 run and finishing 10 games under .500.

 

The point is, there's a lot of variability in final season standings. Unfortunately, the Brewers are probably going to have to lean heavily on that variability falling in their favor to make the playoffs.

The Brewers started the season 24-10 last year without Yovani. In fact, it was a rotation of Sheets, Suppan, Capuano, Bush and Vargas. If the Brewers don't blow 5 of the games they blew in the 2nd half of the season due to poor managing (I was a Yost supporter until about 2 weeks ago despite some of his management decisions last year) and poor bullpen production, they finish 12 or so games over and win the NL Central by several games, basically substituting Gallardo for Sheets.

 

The rotation now... Sheets, Suppan, Bush, Villenueva, Parra compares favorably IMHO if they can stay healthy. A big if. The season is not over.

[brewizard]

Does this mean that Gallardo is now officially injury prone?

[NDBrewerfan]

There are 4 ligaments in your knee not 3 - ACL, PCL, MCL, LCL. You certainly cannot "feel" if you ACL is torn by extending your knee. Below your knee cap is your patellar tendon which tightens. This is totally different then your ACL which is deep in your knee, and it is actually common practice to take a 1/3 of your patellar tendon and use this as a graft to replace the ACL. The two most common mechanisms to cause an ACL tear are a blow from the side which causes a shearing force of the ACL onto the PCL and a hyperextension of the knee which shears the ACL off when it contacts the femur. It looked like this was more of the hyperextension type injury from what I have seen. Probably the object most at risk for further injury by continuing to pitch with a torn ACL is the meniscus since the ACL prevents rotational movement. As your knee becomes more lax the femur can rotate on top of the tibia and cause shearing forces on the meniscus leading to further meniscal damage.

 

The classic test to check for an ACL tear is a Lachman's test which is done by bending the knee and fixating the foot then seeing if the tibia will sublux forward from the femur. Yet often this is difficult to assess due to either swelling or patient guarding by contracting the hamstring which can prevent the tibia from moving forward, so there are reasons why a definite diagnosis could not be made immediately.

[yfinn6]

Does this mean that Gallardo is now officially injury prone?

No.

 

Whatever his knee problem was in spring training it was fixed. His problem yesterday was typical of people who tear their ACL or other knee ligament. It hurts right away and then it feels fine to the point where you can play on it - this is what I was told by a friend who was a UW qb for a while. You can feel the initial pop but after that it's fine. At MRI time you're no good.

 

[giffted1]

Remember a guy named Nick Neugebauer? He said he was fine several times when he was pitching with an injured shoulder. Turned out pretty bad for him and it didn't help the Brewers organization to lose their #1 prospect because he *said* he was fine.

Yes, in that situation the fault is placed on Neugebauer and the training staff. There was no reason to expect Davey Lopes to diagnose a shoulder injury and no reason to expect Ned to diagnose a severe knee injury.

[homer]

Not to mention Yo threw several pitches after the accident and looked fine. So you have player that says he's fine, trainer that says he's fine, and visual evidence that he's fine. I can't really fault anyone there.

[TooLiveBrew]

I blame Ditka.

[Roscoe Chill]

Does this mean that Gallardo is now officially injury prone?

Not even close. We all saw what happened and why he is out for the year. Everyone was shocked that he was even able to finish the inning after SEEING what happened. In Sheets' case, it's just all of a sudden a grimace, or body language from doing what he does...throwing a baseball, and really nothing obvious happened, at least not to the human eye...there's a difference, especially when the instances of this happen over and over again.

I really hope the team stays IN the race, not mathematically in the race. Sitting at 6 or 8 games back at the trading deadline around .500 is technically still in it, but if that would be the case, I wouldn't be holding my breath.

Again, this is exactly why brushing off last year's collapse with the notion that 2008 was the Brewers real year anyway is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

[thablingster]

This stinks, but at the same time I don't really blame anyone. Yo said he was fine. The trainer obviously didn't feel any instability in the joint or I'm sure they'd have taken him out. Considering it was the 5th inning and our bullpen hasn't exactly been underworked, if Yo and the trainer said he could go, then let him go. This isn't football where he could come out for a play or two to make sure he's ok then go back in. It is a judgment call. This just goes to show Yo must have a pretty high pain tolerance, unless he was lying which is not cool.

 

Maybe they should/could have taken him out when they noticed he was favoring the leg, but it isn't like the damage wasn't done at that point anyway.

[yfinn6]

What really steams me is some of those clowns on northsidebaseball. I wanted to rip them apart in their thread but they locked it. Many of them blaming Yost, as if Gallardo tore his ACL when he resumed pitching. Folks, a tore ACL is just that.... it's not going to hurt it to play more (certainly not going to heal) and it needs surgery to correct. It's not like he tore it the following inning. He tore it during the collision. Duh.

 

One of those ... guys... over there posted "hahahaha" in his post.

 

Really? Ugh, I just want to find a Cubs fan and punch him in the face.

[Bernman23]

We're essentially cooked unless we make a move for a near top of the rotation starter. If Attanasio has Dougie near budget, he's going to have to get really creative.

[adambr2]

It doesn't seem likely to me and there really is no way to tell at this point, but do you think there is any possibility at all that we could have Yo back for the playoffs? I still think we have a shot at getting there, although it just got drastically reduced and we'll need some luck. But he would be a huge asset to have in the playoffs if we got there.

[Sheets4theHOF]

This stinks, but at the same time I don't really blame anyone. Yo said he was fine. The trainer obviously didn't feel any instability in the joint or I'm sure they'd have taken him out. Considering it was the 5th inning and our bullpen hasn't exactly been underworked, if Yo and the trainer said he could go, then let him go. This isn't football where he could come out for a play or two to make sure he's ok then go back in. It is a judgment call. This just goes to show Yo must have a pretty high pain tolerance, unless he was lying which is not cool.

 

Maybe they should/could have taken him out when they noticed he was favoring the leg, but it isn't like the damage wasn't done at that point anyway.

The question is how was that missed if it was a complete tear? The ACL Test

 

I'm sure the trainer (roger caplinger or something is his name i think) has a wife and kids and is a nice guy, but being unable to diagnose a ACL tear between innings is a sign that he is not qualified to do his job.

[Fatter than Joey]

If you want to be pissed at someone, be upset with the trainer, because even in football at the highschool level, they have the final say. I find it highly unlikely that the coaching staff ever encountered a torn ACL in baseball before, they are extremely rare, not like football.

 

OK -- I apologize for being tiresome -- I am not going to to pretend I like Yost, or remain objective about him -- however it is statements like this that I am having problems understanding. If baseball trainers have likely never encountered ACLs problems, why is Yost blindly listening to them? -- It just seems like a pretty crappy basket to put all your Yo eggs in.

 

The trainer should have been able to feel if the ligament were completely torn while examining Gallardo.

You have to blame the trainers 100%. Do you think they told Yost it was torn and he left him in the game?

 

You tell me. If the trainers should have been able to tell the ACL was torn and didn't -- then I would agree they are to blame as well. However this seems entirely incompetent to me, -- which is possible -- however going forward I hope Yost doesn't put 100% confidence in these guys. I guess I know Yost has been in baseball for almost 30 years, it seems to me he would have encountered a couple of occasions where trainers whiffed on a gametime diagnosis, and would have the experience to realize that trainers make mistakes, and allow for than when dealing with a guy with talent like Yo.

 

There was no reason to expect Davey Lopes to diagnose a shoulder injury and no reason to expect Ned to diagnose a severe knee injury.

 

I agree 100% -- and really this is my point -- there is no "blame" -- it was an accident, I just wish Ned would err on the side of caution in the future. Ned doesn't know at that point of the collision what is damaged and to what extent. If that would have been Sheets, he would have come out I have to think. The difference is with Sheets, he is likely gone this time next year -- Yo will be hitting his prime.

[Brian the Automator]

The question is how was that missed if it was a complete tear? The ACL Test

 

I'm sure the trainer (roger caplinger or something is his name i think) has a wife and kids and is a nice guy, but being unable to diagnose a ACL tear between innings is a sign that he is not qualified to do his job.

Yeah, so here's the weird thing. My wife tore her ACL a few months ago. Took her to the ER, and they did some motion tests on it. ER doctor didn't seem to think it was an ACL tear, but maybe a sprain instead or a cartilage tear. Now, an argument could be made that the ER doctor was a moron, but sure enough, the MRI revealed that the ACL was totally torn.

Dunno, I'd like to give Caplinger the benefit of a doubt given our experience... but then again, I'm not a doctor.

 

Regardless, my feeling on the matter is that BFnetters (and most human beings) are often looking for someone to _blame_ when something goes wrong, as it that somehow makes us feel better inside. Other than Yo avoiding Reed Johnson, this is one of those things that "just happens".

[sbrylski]

Yovanni needs to pull a Reggie White.

[Bernman23]

This stinks, but at the same time I don't really blame anyone. Yo said he was fine. The trainer obviously didn't feel any instability in the joint or I'm sure they'd have taken him out. Considering it was the 5th inning and our bullpen hasn't exactly been underworked, if Yo and the trainer said he could go, then let him go. This isn't football where he could come out for a play or two to make sure he's ok then go back in. It is a judgment call. This just goes to show Yo must have a pretty high pain tolerance, unless he was lying which is not cool.

 

Maybe they should/could have taken him out when they noticed he was favoring the leg, but it isn't like the damage wasn't done at that point anyway.

The question is how was that missed if it was a complete tear? The ACL Test

 

I'm sure the trainer (roger caplinger or something is his name i think) has a wife and kids and is a nice guy, but being unable to diagnose a ACL tear between innings is a sign that he is not qualified to do his job.

Totally agree. I'm sure he also had the replay of the incident at his disposal, and as a doctor, he should realize that a leg isn't supposed to bend that way. That looked nasty. Gallardo is one tough S.O.B. to be able to shake it off and insist on continuing, but either the trainer or Yost should have stepped in and prevented it. Yost also should have known it's Gallardo's personality is to keep going until someone tells him to stop. His high school coach asked him to throw 10 innings and 170 pitches, or whatever, and as a gamer he gladly obliged.

Blaming Yost for the injury is a separate issue almost entirely. It was a dumb decision regardless of how much irreversible damage had already been done.

[thablingster]

This stinks, but at the same time I don't really blame anyone. Yo said he was fine. The trainer obviously didn't feel any instability in the joint or I'm sure they'd have taken him out. Considering it was the 5th inning and our bullpen hasn't exactly been underworked, if Yo and the trainer said he could go, then let him go. This isn't football where he could come out for a play or two to make sure he's ok then go back in. It is a judgment call. This just goes to show Yo must have a pretty high pain tolerance, unless he was lying which is not cool.

 

Maybe they should/could have taken him out when they noticed he was favoring the leg, but it isn't like the damage wasn't done at that point anyway.

The question is how was that missed if it was a complete tear? The ACL Test

 

I'm sure the trainer (roger caplinger or something is his name i think) has a wife and kids and is a nice guy, but being unable to diagnose a ACL tear between innings is a sign that he is not qualified to do his job.

Things get missed sometimes, it happens. It doesn't make him an incompetent boob. I'm sure we don't know the complete extent of what they did between innings to check it out, but one of the #1 tell-tale signs of an ACL tear/sprain, the swelling, didn't show up until today. Everyone's body responds differently to injury.

 

[NoVaO]

Wow, extremely tough break...the good thing is he should be able to make a full recovery without lingering effects and being a good athlete should help him in his recovery. The arm is healthy and could even benefit from taking time off from the wear-and-tear of pitching.

[rluzinski]

The two most common mechanisms to cause an ACL tear are a blow from the side which causes a shearing force of the ACL onto the PCL and a hyperextension of the knee which shears the ACL off when it contacts the femur. It looked like this was more of the hyperextension type injury from what I have seen.

 

Man, I'm not so sure:

 

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/rluzinski/ouch.jpg

 

O wait. Nevermind.

 

 

 

 

[logan82]

I blame Ditka.

I am going to have to go ahead and blame hurricane Ditka. It is obvious the wind caught Yo in the air and blew him off balance causing him to land funny.

[JJHardy7]

Has everyone seen the blog on the jsonline?

 

http://blogs.jsonline.com/brewers/archive/2008/05/02/brewers-assume-gallardo-out-for-year.aspx

 

Yovani coming back in didn't further the injury at all. If it did, then you're thinking this is a conspiracy. Any blame to Yost on this is just ridiculous. Is it Yost's fault there was a collision? It was a freak play and unfortunately it happened to the Brewers. I guess I'll just have to understand that there are some that will try to blame everything on Yost. Should Yo have been taken out? I'm sure he would've if the coaching staff knew the facts, but again it's a coaching staff. If Yo felt fine and the trainers felt it was ok, why take Yo out? Should every injury stoppage in baseball be a "gut feeling" or should the coaches trust those that get paid to make medical evaluations?

 

This does stink and the Brewers at the present have lost any room for failure. I'll throw a name out here that I think could help the Brewers (not in a Yovani way, but in quality starts) -- Mark DiFelice. You can laugh at that statement, but the guy has pitched very well in the Brewers organization. I think this guy deserves a shot if needed and I think Weaver is going to take a lot longer than expected to get the rust off his pitching.

[Fatter than Joey]

The question is how was that missed if it was a complete tear?

 

Yeah, I appreciate what Brian said about blame and whatever, but this whole thing doesn't make sense to me, and I just want to understand it better. I thoroughly appreciate everyone's ACL input, I feel like I have learned something.

 

Things get missed sometimes, it happens. It doesn't make him an incompetent boob.

 

Exactly, which is why they shouldn't be trusted 100% of the time.