Gallardo injury: Has torn ACL, placed on 15-day DL; Bush recalled (reply #32)

[TooLiveBrew]

A commenter in the TH blog suggests trading LaPorta to the Mets for Vargas

 

I wish you were kidding. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif I don't even know what to say...

[Bring Back the Stein]

What about at Cudahy Memorial? Do I fall just outside the Domain of the Blessed?

 

My parents were living on National Avenue at the time if that helps get me through the Pearly Gates

 

Well, since Trinity is within 10 miles from Milwaukee's geographical center (the Milorganite plant), it qualifies. So no, you're good. You will get your 71 beer-bellied virgins in heaven.

[Brewtacular]

I need a beer.

correction

I need beer.

tear.

[Fatter than Joey]

The reality of the situation is that if you've torn your ACL, you aren't going to damage it FURTHER by pitching after the fact, unless it's partially torn (which doesn't appear to be the case).

 

Then why not let Yo make his next start? if there is nothing left to hurt or no more damage could be done? If it is smart to put him on the DL ASAP, then it was

probably a good idea to yank him after the collision.

 

How could have Yost (or his staff) known that Yo torn partially or completely his ACL or other ligaments, during the gameday.

 

Are we really blaming Ned for this? There's plenty to pin on Ned over the years, but this isn't one of those situations

 

I don't think anyone here blames Yost for the collision. Letting Yo pitch after the fact though is a head-scratcher to me, it just doesn't seem prudent.

 

Anyone got an idea of the timetable for recovery? Could Gallardo feasibly be available for October?

 

Graffy completely tore his ACL -- His timetable was about a year.

[olliegjw]

I agree with mikerollins. If the trainer says the guy is okay, then he is okay. Imagine if Ned had taken Yo out, the relievers got rocked, and after the game we found out Yo was okay, and the trainer said he could continue, but Ned overruled. This board would be going ballistic.

 

The facts are:

 

1. It was a fully torn ACL.

2. He did no further damage by pitching on.

[lcbj68c]

And zero percent? That's just not accurate******* yes it is. 0.0000000000000% coaches coach. trainers train. if the trainer gives the thumbs up sign the manager/coach should treat it as if nothing happened. its on the trainer to go tell the manager if a player can or can not go. its so basic I can't even belief anybody would think otherwise??? I don't think it mattered if they left him in or not because it was most likely already torn but that decision always in all sports falls under the job of the trainer. ask any trainer or coach at the college or professional level and they will tell you.

I have to kind of agree with Mike here. Again, as an umpire, I've been in that huddle at even the college level and the coaches are absoutely dumbfounded when it comes to these injuries. They stand there with their hand on the players back and console the player while the medical professional goes about their business. The coach asks the same question to both the medical professional and the player, "Can u Go, & Can He Go?" If it's a collective Yes, the player stays out there. It's irregardless of salary, playoff chase situation, talent level of the player. If the player and medical pro think the kid / guy can go, he goes.

[olliegjw]

If Sheets gets hit by a pitch, should Ned yank him from the game? It may be sore and bruised, and he might altar his pitching motion and hurt his arm. As long as the player and trainer say they are fine, you keep them out there. Then, the manager, pitching coach, and others keep a close eye on them to make sure that their motion isn't being altared/hindered. Exactly what they did yesterday. Same thing 99% of the managers in MLB would do.

[jodo23]

The reality of the situation is that if you've torn your ACL, you aren't going to damage it FURTHER by pitching after the fact, unless it's partially torn (which doesn't appear to be the case).

Speaking from experience, you can seriously damage the meniscus after an ACL tear due to the instability of the joint.

 

About 7 years ago, I made the brilliant decision to play tag football 4 hours before standing up in a wedding. My knee blew out , but I didn't miss the wedding; ended up having most of the medial and lateral meniscus removed because of my folly. I believe my orthopaedic surgeon said that not staying off of it after the initial injury was a "very stupid thing to do."

 

But, then again, the Brewers medical staff knew what they were doing. Right?

[Fatter than Joey]

The facts are:

1. It was a fully torn ACL.

2. He did no further damage by pitching on.

 

Then why not let him finish the season?

[olliegjw]

The facts are:

1. It was a fully torn ACL.

2. He did no further damage by pitching on.

 

Then why not let him finish the season?

He was not in pain yesterday. My guess is that there is a lot of pain (and swelling) today. Would he be able to pitch with a brace? Maybe, but I'm not a doctor. If I were the manager, I'd do what the trainers and doctors tell me in regards to injuries. My guess is that the doctors told the Brewers that he can't pitch anymore with the torn ACL.

[sargennm]

The facts are:

1. It was a fully torn ACL.

2. He did no further damage by pitching on.

 

Then why not let him finish the season?

Because now they actually know the ACL is torn and LONG TERM it can do damage to other knee ligaments. After the on-the-field evaluation, they thought he had a minor knee injury. TH just said on Homer's show that Kendall didn't notice anything wrong with him after the injury.

 

[Fatter than Joey]

My guess is that the doctors told the Brewers that he can't pitch anymore with the torn ACL.

 

Then that's what should have happened yesterday.

[TheCrew07]

Anyone got an idea of the timetable for recovery? Could Gallardo feasibly be available for October?

With modern rehab a full recovery is about 9 months, it's different for every athelete, and different for men vs women. The "full" recovery is pretty generous, generally it takes about 18 months for someone to get back to their old form. At the football clinic this year a strength coach suggested the extra 9 months was a mental recovery time, as physically there is wrong with the knee and an agruement can be made it's stronger than it was before, but I haven't seen a study verify that. My personal experience with high school kids suggests that it's probably true, it takes them a long time to trust the knee and get confidence back in it. Take that for what it's worth.

 

I've personally seen 4 ACL (2 boys and 2 girls) in my time coaching, and on the field flexibility tests help you determine that it's "loose", but aren't accurate enough to let you know exactly what is wrong. An MRI is still the only sure fire way to tell... As far as the injury, with a hyper extension like that, he did the damage at the point of impact, and did not hurt it anymore by pitching. I would have thought it was the MCL, we've seen that quite a bit, I'm shocked it was the ACL, ACL's normally happen from a twist of some sort.

 

As far as the lack of pain and lack of initial swelling, that my friends in adrenaline at it's finest.

 

This is a shocking blow to be sure, but the season is far from over. How are the Brewers to remain competitive if they contuinally trade away their top prospects 2 and 3 at a time? You can make one deal, maybe 2, in a 4-5 year period, the Brewers cannot build their team through free agency, they need the farm system to keep things going. The Brewers will never be in "win now" mode, they must have one eye focused on the future to maintain success. The 2 best hitters in the system for Lincecum? NO FREAKING WAY. If the right deal came along I'd trade one of them, but definately not both. Laporta is closer to being major league ready so I could see interest in him, but once again the Brewers will not be trading from a position of strength, so they'll likely have to give up more to make the deal happen. In my opinion another Linebrink type deal is not what this team needs.

 

If the Brewers don't make the playoffs, I can live with that, it just wasn't to be that Yo and Sheets would be healthy and pitching at the same time. If/when the bats get going there's plenty offense available to help carry the team.

edit. FTJ, your little snipit posts are getting tiresome. The truth is that he could physically pitch on it, but it wouldn't heal properly, and it's likely it wouldn't heal at all. To fix the legiment it needs to be surgically repaired, any time you enter the knee, even for a scope, recovery time is necessary. This isn't a difficult concept and you seem like an intelligent guy... People have been tearing up their knees for centuries and somehow managed to live fruitful productive lives without the benefit modern medicine to get them through the day. Say what you want but successive post makes it more clear that you have a vendetta for Yost, as if any of us needed any reinforcement on your opinion of him. If you want to be pissed at someone, be upset with the trainer, because even in football at the highschool level, they have the final say. I find it highly unlikely that the coaching staff ever encountered a torn ACL in baseball before, they are extremely rare, not like football.

[SeriesFinale]

TH just said on Homer's show that Kendall didn't notice anything wrong with him after the injury.

That surprises me...his velocity was way off after he came back for that last inning

[RU Rah Rah]

I think erring on the side of caution might have been the wisest move here, especially given who the injured player was. Why chance it?

[olliegjw]

My guess is that the doctors told the Brewers that he can't pitch anymore with the torn ACL.

 

Then that's what should have happened yesterday.

And what was the negative of keeping him in there?

[jodo23]

My guess is that the doctors told the Brewers that he can't pitch anymore with the torn ACL.

 

Then that's what should have happened yesterday.

And what was the negative of keeping him in there?

Due to the instability in the knee from the loss of the ACL, he may have done further damage to the knee- meniscus tears, MCL tear, etc.

[Fatter than Joey]

Because now they actually know the ACL is torn and LONG TERM it can do damage to other knee ligaments.

 

Thank you. This is exactly where I want to go with this. I guess what I would have liked to see, is Yost operate under the worst case scenario with the franchise's most valuable player. Damage control.

 

After the on-the-field evaluation, they thought he had a minor knee injury.

 

I don't doubt that. No one on the field had any sort idea what the problem exactly was.

 

Imagine if Ned had taken Yo out, the relievers got rocked, and after the game we found out Yo was okay, and the trainer said he could continue, but Ned overruled. This board would be going ballistic.

 

Maybe you would have been. I would have seen Yost trying to prevent further injury. The collision was pretty violent, I don't think taking Yo out would have been controversial at all.

 

If this was the 7th game of the WS, I'd been AOK with Yo going.

 

TH just said on Homer's show that Kendall didn't notice anything wrong with him after the injury.

 

This really doesn't mean a lot.

[rluzinski]

But objectively, I really see no way this team can make the playoffs now without corresponding injuries to other teams.

 

Objectively, of course the Brewers have a chance of making the playoffs even without corresponding injuries to other teams. The question really is, how big of a chance? If the Brewers are a .500 team without Yo (which is a very reasonable assumption, IMO), they'd finish with 83 wins on average. How often would a .500 team finish with 90 wins (and a good shot at the playoffs) in the Brewer's situation just from luck? They'd have to finish 74-60, which is 7 more games than expected. Works out to 13%. Of course, they also have a 13% chance of finishing with a 60-74 run and finishing 10 games under .500.

 

The point is, there's a lot of variability in final season standings. Unfortunately, the Brewers are probably going to have to lean heavily on that variability falling in their favor to make the playoffs.

[bucks2281]

A couple of points:

 

*Ben Sheets MUST make a stronger commitment to staying healthy. I know that statement may draw some ire from some around here, but it's been speculated that Sheets is "soft" or doesn't pitch when he's "not feeling 100%." Ben must carry this team on his shoulders for the rest of the year.

 

*Am I incorrect by equating this situation to last year's demise of Chris Capuano? Probably a similar effect on the W-L columns.

 

*If I'm Melvin, I'm entertaining and pursuing trade talk. It's a probability that Sheets will wind up on the DL, and this window won't be open for much longer: the attitude must remain "playoffs or bust."

 

*I'm not going to play the blame game. Yes, Reed Johnson is an idiot and who knows what the training staff was thinking. The fact is, Gallardo is gone, but we need to focus on what it will take for the Brewers to win the division. IMO, it's still a possibility; Yo was bound to cool off at some point.

[Brian the Automator]

Then why not let Yo make his next start? if there is nothing left to hurt or no more damage could be done? If it is smart to put him on the DL ASAP, then it was

probably a good idea to yank him after the collision.

Seems like you're totally exaggerating what I said. There's a big difference between not damaging other parts of the body by completing the game and being much less effective on the mound because his lateral motion is nil.

[giffted1]

Thank you. This is exactly where I want to go with this. I guess what I would have liked to see, is Yost operate under the worst case scenario with the franchise's most valuable player. Damage control.

Most managers are going to leave players out there when both the player and trainer say they're good to go. If you disagree with this, your disapproval should be directed at coaches in general, not just Yost.

 

Maybe you would have been. I would have seen Yost trying to prevent further injury. The collision was pretty violent, I don't think taking Yo out would have been controversial at all.

I highly doubt that.

[bando1234]

I did not reead the whole thread but I do have an important question. Is this DL stint going to be most of the year?

[Brian the Automator]

I did not reead the whole thread but I do have an important question. Is this DL stint going to be most of the year?

I think it would be safe to assume it will be. General ACL rehab is usually like 6 months for a healthy person ... Given that he wouldn't be able to throw until after his leg was up to it, that pretty much seals the deal.

 

[crewcrazy]

I did not reead the whole thread but I do have an important question. Is this DL stint going to be most of the year?

Most of, if not all. It's being assumed that the Brewers aren't going to try to rush him back this year, because it could lead to more injuries down the line, whether it's re-injuring the knee or hurting his arm while trying to compensate for a weak knee.