Bush Optioned to clear spot for Cameron

[logan82]

I was just wondering if this was the same bush that most wanted sent away for good. early on in the year? The guy has been killed around here and now there is talk and actual controversy as to him being sent down. I find it funny seeing all the talk of him in the other thread, especially the game threads. I would have preferred Parra but tthought I would chime from what I have read and seen in past threads.

I think there were more people who wanted Bush in the starting rotation, but thought Parra had better stuff and would be a better pitcher in the long run.

 

If we are going to pitch one of them, and basically get the same thing. I would it rather be Parra because he has the better chance of turning into something above avg.

The problem is we aren't getting the same thing. Bush is going longer and not burning out our pen every 5 days.

[Blancofan1]

Just because Gord Ash tells Haudricourt that, doesn't mean its true or that that was the case in this instance. And if your scenario were true, a team could take a shot at getting McClung by claiming Bush.

You don't have to believe Gord Ash or Haudricourt, just watch Baseball tonight, especially around trade deadline time. I don't have a lot of faith in ESPN but there are a few guys on there that I trust when it comes to baseball news. Mostly Peter Gammons and Soup Cambell, even Steve Phillips I trust when he's talking about waiver moves and transactions, just not when he speaks about actual personnel involved.

[naivin]

So if things go well tonight and Sheets goes 6 or 7 and feels alright in the morning, does Dillon return tomorrow?

[craigharmann]

So if things go well tonight and Sheets goes 6 or 7 and feels alright in the morning, does Dillon return tomorrow?

I sure hope so....Counsell as the sole backup infielder makes me quite nervous.

 

[jeffy]

I sure hope so....Counsell as the sole backup infielder makes me quite nervous.

 

Why?

[Oldcity]

I'm guessing it's because Counsell is the only one.

[pete]

In this case it is true though. Think about it. If you're GM of a team and you see the Brewers put him on revocable waivers would you even bother claiming him knowing that they're most likely going to just take him off? Yeah I suppose you could say that they could force the Brewers hand and make them put McClung or Turnbow on waivers but they suck and most teams aren't going to want either of them.

 

 

Personally, I don't think anyone would claim Bush because he isn't very good. I don't believe that other teams aren't competing to win either. Forcing the Brewers to keep Bush is a near guarantee of increasing our number of losses.

 

Turnbow is a question because of his contract, but lots of teams would take McClung at this point. They all have access to video of his performances this year. I'm sure the Cardinals would take him in an instant.

[Fatter than Joey]

Bush makes $2.5M -- McClung makes 750K.

 

I think every last team would rather pay Bush $2.5M than McClung 750K.

 

Certainly Bush has struggled these last months, but he is a MUCH better pitcher than either Tbow or McClung.

[JohnBriggs12]

I still can't believe people are making a case for Turnbow. His WHIP since July 1, 2006 is a whopping 1.68. Yes at times last year he did all right as an 8th inning pitcher, but they've added 5 guys capable of doing that job at least as well when right since then (Mota, Torres, McClung Riske, Stetter). He's also not suited to mopup because he can't throw strikes and get any quick outs so he's limited to one inning if he's lucky.

 

Not only can't he pitch well with any type of consistency, he's become a distraction. He's the odd man in the bullpen in more ways than one. Having your one time closer around who's struggled for the better part of two seasons, is just not good for team chemistry.

 

I think they made the right decision with Bush. Parra will get over the hump on his innings. Lefties often take a bit longer. Dana Eveland is a perfect example. Eveland had the stuff to get major leaguers out when he was a Brewer two years ago. Now he is flourishing. Parra is more advanced than Eveland was then. He's on the verge of being very, very good. Bush has the maturity to handle a stint in AAA, and keep himself ready when needed.

[jeffy]

I'm guessing it's because Counsell is the only one.

 

Well, thanks for the explanation, now I get it http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif. But really, why? What are the chances of needing more than one back-up infielder? Besides, Rivera is listed as back-up for 1b, Hart has played 1b, Braun has played 3rd and was a SS once upon a time, and Bill Hall can be moved elsewhere in the infield were it necessary.

[TheCrew07]

You aren't seriously suggesting Braun play SS? Rivera play 1B for Prince? The chances are pretty good they'll need more than 1 infielder considering all the depth the Brewers needed on the infield to get through the last 2 seasons...

 

It's not really about that, I feel Dillon was the best bat on the bench, and I'd rather have him up and at the plate when we need the runner to score from second than any of the current bench options. He was the best hitter on the bench, and now he's playing in AAA so we can have 2 backup CFs... Dillon can at least legitmately play a corner OF spot, and 2 infield positions, which is something Gwynn cannot do. I want no part of a singles hitting CF playing a corner outfield position.

[Gopher74]

i know all are going to hate this, but up to today McClung had pitched pretty good, in fact i had more faith in him then i did Turnbow and for that matter Riske as of late. McClung is closer to a MLB pitcher then Turnbow is by far.

McClung pitched 7 2/3 innings before today, I'm sorry but you can't really formulate an opinion on him either way.

You can't make a definitive statement on 8 innings pitched, but you sure can formulate an opinion and you very clearly see why the Brewers decided that he was worthy of keeping.

There's never been any mystery to Seth McClung. Great, out of this world stuff, no control. Well, he's showing control. You can say that it's only been 72/3rds innings, and of course, it has, but so what? I don't think anyone's said we're out of the woods, only that he's shown enough in that time to start earning a larger role in this pen. Hard to argue with that.

And I put the HR to Helms more on Rivera than on McClung. NO reason to throw a 3rd fastball in a row to him there when McClung's got a fantastic curve.

[Gopher74]

When I read the thread title, I thought Melvin had lost his mind. I think people are right to say that Melvin wants to keep Bush stretched out, however. Makes sense, although it's a shame that Turnbow and McClung will be logging major league innings and Bush won't. That just isn't right.

 

.

 

Fans do it all the time, then act surprised when they go back, to pitching like they always have. Heck, Yost does it all the time as well. Stetter was supposed to be a LOOGY but now Yost is going to use him in general situations. That is, until he predictably blows up and then he'll be a LOOGY again.

So how exactly does a pitcher, specifically a pitcher like Stetter ever evolve beyond their current role? If Yost is so wrong for using him as a full inning guy, despite his success, and if you were the manager, you wouldn't, then he's just a loogy for his entire career, correct? I mean, they can never really move past that using this type of logic? Of course not. That's crazy. A large sample size starts as a small one, and in both the case of Stetter and McClung, they've thrown well enough for the most part to earn that chance to develop larger roles. How anyone can argue against Stetter being a pitcher who should start to draw full inning duty is beyond me. Likewise, with how well McClung has thrown since his last time out, and the potential he possess, I think he can be used as more than just a long man.

 

I also like Dave Bush, yea, he's one of the 12 best pitchers, but I have a hard time getting too worked up about him being sent down. He's a guy who's actual production will never match his peripherals, which at one point had him as a frontline starter.

 

I am rather intrigued by Seth McClung. He's looked really good since his first outing, and the Helms HR I lay on Rivera's feet as much as his. He's likely always going to be a guy who gets a lot of the plate, but he can usually get away with it if the hitter doesn't know what's coming. You throw him an 0-2 curve there, and the bat may end up over the dugout.

 

I think in order for us to be a 90+ win team, we're going to need significant contributions from McClung or Turnbow and I feel better about getting them from McClung at the moment.

 

 

 

 

[trwi7]

Well, he's showing control. You can say that it's only been 72/3rds innings, and of course, it has, but so what?

He's not showing control though. He's still walking 5.2 per 9 innings. There has to be a point where they say, okay we can't teach him anymore, we've done all we can, he's never going to have control. Same thing goes for Turnbow.

[endaround]

McClung missed his spot on the home run. And I'm not sure where you think this great control is. He's walked five in 8.6 innings while giving up 2 HRs.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

While I'm glad the Brewers have now evolved to the point where they're demoting Designated Rotation Stooges, I thought Turnbow could have been DFA'ed instead.

 

Bush seems better suited to the long-man role, especially since he gets torched by inning #4 or #5, and because Parra and to a lesser extent, Villanueva, can't be counted on to go 6 these days. And if Sheets isn't 100% (7 walks?!), then the pen is taxed that much more.

 

That said, Bush was a bad starting pitcher, and teams like the Pirates, Nationals, Rangers, etc. already have plenty of them, so I'm not shedding a tear over this.

 

"-Other teams look at Bush, and decide a)"if we claim him, the Brewers will pull him back off waivers" and b)"if the Brewers pull him off waivers, they might actually get rid of Turnbow or McClung" "

 

Was this ever published as general knowledge, or is this just your theory here? If a player who can bring some value is available, teams who'd need his services would claim him. Maybe that happened, maybe it didn't. Do we know for sure if, say, a Kansas City or a Houston officially placed a claim on Bush, and then the Brewers reeled him back in?

 

But if there's no evidence of this, then it can't be taken as an assumption of truth.

 

"The delusion that a 4.57 career ERA makes one a 6 or 7 starter is what we call... oh yes a low information Brewer fan"

 

Holy condescension, Batman! Comic Book Guy is taking notes right now.

 

Chan Ho Park has a career ERA better than 4.57, but I wouldn't want him starting for us either.

[naivin]

Does anyone think Turnbow would accept a minor league assignment? Since Ned basically said in the paper today that he can really only use him when necessary, he obviously is no good to us, or himself right now. Do we think he would be willing to spend some time in AAA, or would he more likely force his release? Personally, I think he would rather go elsewhere. That being the case, I think Doug should probably grant him his wish. I have no doubt Doug and Co. don't want to just let him walk away until they have a better idea what they have in guys like Riske and Mota and Gane, etc., but Dillon is eligible today I believe, so this seems like a logical time to get back to 12 pitchers.

[jeffy]

You aren't seriously suggesting Braun play SS? Rivera play 1B for Prince? The chances are pretty good they'll need more than 1 infielder considering all the depth the Brewers needed on the infield to get through the last 2 seasons...

Just pointing out in case of emergency others have infield experience. I don't see having Counsell as the only infielder on the bench as a big problem.

 

Braun would, at best, be the 4th choice at SS after Hardy, Counsell, and Hall...so it is pretty certain they would never get to that point. The Brewers have Rivera as back-up at 1b on their depth chart, which was a surprise to me...I expected to see maybe Hart listed there.

 

Rivera had one inning at 1b in 2003, Corey Hart has 8 times http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif as much major league experience at that position and more recently, too. Kendall played a couple innings in the OF in 2007. So maybe the actual way Rivera is the emergency 1b back-up, if no one else if left on the bench, is Kendall in right, Hart at 1b, and Rivera catching.

[RightFieldCoder]

Well, thanks for the explanation, now I get it . But really, why? What are the chances of needing more than one back-up infielder?

The same reason only having one back-up catcher handcuffs Yost. We already have a short bench, and he might be less willing to use a back-up infielder in a tie game if he is the only one on the bench. With two, he feels better about burning one of those defensive players.

 

A lot of people didn't want Bush in the rotation, but I believe most of those people wanted him in the bullpen. That is why so many people seem to be against the idea of sending him down to the minors. I equate Bush to TGJ. They may not be the best starters, but that doesn't mean AAA is the best place for them.

[rluzinski]

Well, he's showing control. You can say that it's only been 72/3rds innings, and of course, it has, but so what?

 

He hasn't shown good control this year or any other in the majors. And even if he had shown good control for 8 IP this year, so what? It's like pointing out that a high strikeout player has lowered his strikeout rate for 2 weeks. When making personel decisions, you care about what the stats tell you about a player's true underlying skill. You don't just play a guy until he fails.

 

With regard to Stetter, I won't pretend to have followed his minor league career. I know he's 27 years old and was brought up to give Yost another left handed pitcher in the pen. How would he rank among the options in the pen against a RH batter? 7th?

 

Here's a sabermetric website's take on Bush being sent down:

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/what_do_teams_use_to_evaluate_pitchers/#comments

[Fatter than Joey]

Does anyone think Turnbow would accept a minor league assignment?

 

I don't think so, I think Tbow wants out of Milw., and he is probably right that it's time to move on. The team has clearly lost faith in him, and I would think Tbow would be happier pitching in another AAA system and getting a clean slate.

 

On to other business....

 

Last night was a perfect illustration of why I think it was a mistake to option Bush instead of McClung/Turnbow.

 

Here is a quick recap of what happened last night....

 

1.) Sheets is struggling in the 4th in a tie game -- Who gets the call in the BP? -- McClung.

 

2.) The Brewers go up by 5 in the 7th -- Who gets the call from the BP? -- Torres, probably our most consistent reliever in the BP this year.

 

It is clear to me that Ned wants to or will use McClung as a long reliever, and not a garbage inning eater. A 4-4 tie in the 4th inning is a place you put your LR guy in, not a garbage man. The 7th inning with a 5 run lead seems like the perfect spot to use a garbage pitcher like McClung, not Torres.

 

Conclusion: McClung is the new LR guy.

 

Now, I don't want to argue what Ned shoulda/coulda/woulda done last night, rather point out how innings will likely be distributed in the future.

 

Last year, Villy anchored our pen picking up some VERY crucial innings in long relief. I think Bush is a clearly superior pitcher to McClung, and I would much rather Bush be our LR guy than a clown like McClung. I am AOK with McClung being our garbage inning guy, I am not OK with McClung being our LR guy.

 

I understand the reasoning behind keeping Bush in AAA against an injury that "could happen", and that is all well and good.

 

However, don't we have a need in the here and now with starters only going 4-5 IP? -- Manny Parra has pitched well, but has not been able to complete the 6th inning in 5 starts, and has only reached the 6th inning one time. All of Parra's starts have been decent, in that he has given the Brewers a chance to win the game, he is just using way too many pitches to get through 4 innings.

 

I am fine with Parra continuing to start, and maybe stretching himself out so that by the end of the year he is getting 6IP/start, but, in the meantime, I'd rather Bush get the ball in the 5th inning of a Parra/Villy/Shaky Sheets game than McClung.

 

If Yost is going to use Torres in a game with a 5 run lead instead of McClung, I do not see a purpose for either Tbow or McClung to be on the roster.

[Tbadder]

I'd essentially agree with this. While I didn't mind sending Bush down (he simply isn't adequate for a contending team as a starter) this is a team that needs a quality long reliever. I love the 3 or 4 inning save, and I'm confident that Bush could do this job when the Crew has a 4 run or more lead. That would save the bullpen, oh I don't know, I'm guessing five or six times a year. In effect giving them an off day. I really would have DFAed Turnblow and committed to Bush in this role.

[naivin]

Teh question is if Sheets didn't have th is tricep thing, would Bush still be in AAA right now? I could certainly see the case for it, but I guess I have my doubts. I think Sheets' situation probably has more to do with it than anything. Likewise, it also provides some easy insurance if Parra falters, which I think all would agree is a possibility.

[joepepsi]

Teh question is if Sheets didn't have th is tricep thing, would Bush still be in AAA right now? I could certainly see the case for it, but I guess I have my doubts. I think Sheets' situation probably has more to do with it than anything. Likewise, it also provides some easy insurance if Parra falters, which I think all would agree is a possibility.

I think this is what's going on. Bush will be back up shortly after his minimum required 10 day stint is up. They want him to keep pitching every 5 days for now, while they evaluate Sheets' progress. If Sheets goes on the DL, Bush is ready to step into the rotation. If Sheets is healthy, Bush comes back in a couple weeks as the long man out of the pen, after they decide who to designate for assignment. If neither McClung or TBow pitch themselves off the team in the next two weeks, then Stetter will probably be sent back down until they can dump TBow.

[Fatter than Joey]

If Sheets goes on the DL, Bush is ready to step into the rotation.

 

I would concede that if DM and co. feel like there is a very tangible (not to be confused with general injury concerns) chance Sheets will go on the DL after Tuesday's start, then sending Bush down makes a lot more sense. I am assuming that Ben is go to go from here on out.