Bush Optioned to clear spot for Cameron

[pete]

I think its amazing that people imagine that Bush wasn't claimed because other managers are being nice or because the Brewers would have taken him back. He's mediocre to bad. He's exactly the kind of guy that teams want to replace if they have one so why would they take him? It was silly to keep him out of spring training. He means losses. If he puts up his bulldog 5-6-7 era in Nashville, should he be brought back?

 

And no, don't put him in the bullpen. McClung is far better at this point.

[Ennder]

This is same sort of logic that keeps Yost from letting Rivera PH. If a Brewer starter gets hurt on Monday, and Bush pitches on Sat, Sun or Monday in Nash., he can't help out the Brewers. If this is the reason they sent Bush down, I think it is a bad one.

 

Not at all, if bush goes to RP and we go 2 months and then Sheets gets hurt we have to send BUsh to the minors to stretch out to become a starter again. He cannot just step into the role at that point. We then have to bring up some even more marginal than Bush guy to start for 2-3 starts while he stretches out. McClung is servicable as the last man in the bullpen so I have no issue with him at all. He seems to be the type that lets in 1-2 runs a lot of the time and 0 runs occassionally which stinks but is ok as the last guy in the bullpen. Turnbow is the type that lets in 0 or 4-5 and either doesn't help the team a ton (1 inning in the 5th or 6th isnt' huge) or absolutely destroys your odds of winning.

 

We don't really need Turnbow and McClung gone, one gone is enough. There isn't a huge reason to make BUsh a RP expecially considering his problems are the 1st inning and with RISP which are both disasters waiting to happen in a RP role.

[Fear The Chorizo]

there would be plenty of 11 man pitching staffs in the majors that had more depth than the Brewers' 14-man did - what I mean by that is out of all the relievers in the pen, there are very few who have been consistently good, and when some of them come into a game it feels like a matter of time before the opponent has 2 guys on and nobody out.

 

I think Bush clearing revocable waivers speaks more to a general over-valuing of him by us as a whole moreso than the thought of teams expecting a cut/release of McClung or Turnbow - if Bush was viewed as a better starting option than what teams like the Astros, Rangers, Orioles, Phillies, etc have in their rotations, they would have claimed him. I think we should view Bush for what he currently is - an arm that can give you similar production to a young pitcher with more upside who's just getting his feet wet in the bigs. There are plenty of teams that have poor rotation "depth", but pitchers with Bush's stuff actually do grow on trees, and many teams would rather let their youngsters fill in for injuries early on in the season instead of giving up young talent for a middling pitcher.

 

Bush has been a pitcher with good peripheal stats and bad results for long enough that it's fair to say he's a #5 with limited upside at this point in his career.

 

not specific to this thread, but in all honesty I've been more than pleased with the overall quality of Brewer pitching this season...if the offense wasn't virtually dormant for the entire first month, we'd have a record similar to the D'backs, if not better. Pitching has given us a chance to win basically every game so far this season, and I'm worried that we're in the middle of burning this pitching staff out since there hasn't been a game in a long, long time where 5 runs are scored by the 4th inning, and the opposition needs to use their long man out of the pen. if the bats are as good as we all think they are, it's about time they get going. if they don't hit, they're not going to stay in any kind of division/playoff race.

[DougJones43]

This is a stupid waiver. How does Turnbow continue to have a job?

I don't know, those 3 whole strikes he threw today were pretty impressive.

[logan82]

pogokat wrote:

i would have sent parra down, but its hard to argue that he's more deserving of being sent down than bush...the team is trying to win and prepare for more...

I would have sent Parra down as well mainly because he has yet to pitch more than 5 1/3 innings in any start. Bush's shortest start has been 5 1/3. Parra is about 1 K/9 higher than Bush and they have an almost identical BB rate right now. Those rates can obviously swing wildly with one good or bad start by either as can ERA, which seems to be the only huge difference between the two.

[Ennder]

I think Bush clearing revocable waivers speaks more to a general over-valuing of him by us as a whole moreso than the thought of teams expecting a cut/release of McClung or Turnbow - if Bush was viewed as a better starting option than what teams like the Astros, Rangers, Orioles, Phillies, etc have in their rotations, they would have claimed him

 

That isn't true at all. The only teams that would claim him are teams that think it is worth eating his contract for a year and those are only teams who expect to compete. At that point it comes down to whether the team thinks the Brewers would trade him if they claimed him since it is revocable waivers. Whether someone claimed him or not has nothing to do with people overvaluing him.

[Fatter than Joey]

McClung is servicable as the last man in the bullpen so I have no issue with him at all.

 

McClung is pitching meaningful innings. Plus I think Bush is probably better than Mota/Riske as well as Turnbow or McClung -- probably better than Shouse in a multi-batter situation.

 

There isn't a huge reason to make BUsh a RP expecially considering his problems are the 1st inning and with RISP which are both disasters waiting to happen in a RP role.

 

You cannot assume that if a starter struggles in the first inning that they will be a bad reliever.

 

I'd rather see what Bush could do in relief than keep him in the minors in the offchance someone gets hurt.

[tristarscoop]

During today's Broadcast Bill/Brian said that the only reason Stetter didn't make the team out of Spring Training is that they wanted him to be more than a LOOGY so they sent him to Nashville to see more right handed batters. He did well against them/in full innings and therefore they called him up. As far as I'm concerned, he's the best bullpen option we've seen in the past 10 days or so. I wish he could give the rest of the guys a lesson in composure.

[Ennder]

McClung is servicable as the last man in the bullpen so I have no issue with him at all.

 

McClung is pitching meaningful innings. Plus I think Bush is probably better than Mota/Riske as well as Turnbow or McClung -- probably better than Shouse in a multi-batter situation.

 

There isn't a huge reason to make BUsh a RP expecially considering his problems are the 1st inning and with RISP which are both disasters waiting to happen in a RP role.

 

You cannot assume that if a starter struggles in the first inning that they will be a bad reliever.

 

I'd rather see what Bush could do in relief than keep him in the minors in the offchance someone gets hurt.

The 7.88 ERA as a RP doesn't make me much happier, the fact that he has weak stuff and thrives on location doesn't make a bullpen role seem good for him. The fact he cannot pitch well from the stretch doesn't help. THe fact he stinks in the first 25 pitches really worries me. Also McClung is only pitching in important roles because everyone else in the bullpen had already pitched. Yeah when we have tons of extra inning games in a week it matters but in most normal weeks he'll be strictly in junk innings.

 

That is worth it to me considering that 1 in 3 pitchers hit the DL every single year(and Sheets odds are higher than most as are Parras) and Bush is our #6 SP. There is no way we move him to the bullpen when Jeff Weaver is probably our #7. It just makes no sense to me at all.

[pete]

The idea that teams wouldn't take Bush because the Brewers would take him back is far fetched. I fail to see why it would even be considered.

 

If he were as valuable as his fandom on here thought, his salary isn't very high. People talk about him being a good #4.

[Oldcity]

McClung won't be pitching many high-leverage innings once the inordinate amount of extra inning games slows down. Off day tomorrow before the return of Ben Sheets, Bullpen Saver.

[Glennron]

I think its amazing that people imagine that Bush wasn't claimed because other managers are being nice or because the Brewers would have taken him back. He's mediocre to bad. He's exactly the kind of guy that teams want to replace if they have one so why would they take him? It was silly to keep him out of spring training. He means losses. If he puts up his bulldog 5-6-7 era in Nashville, should he be brought back?

Dave Bush could easily be a back-end rotation guy on at least a couple of Major League teams, I'm honestly almost baffled you don't think he could be on a major league team.

 

And no, don't put him in the bullpen. McClung is far better at this point.

 

Those 8.2 innings pitched by McCling this year really convinced you?

[WV Brew]

the team has shown adesire to keep the best players in the fold

 

...Counsell, Rivera, Kapler....

Parra should have been sent down instead of Bush. Despite Melvin's claim he threw a good game. 100 pitches in less than 6 innings against a depleted Marlins lineup is not my description of a good game. Manny will not last the season. He is better off being sent down, controlling his innings and returning later if he is needed. Point 2. Instead of mandating two games a week for Counsell, we should have two games a week managed by someone other than Ned Yost.

[Tbadder]

I like the move because it gives us a clearer picture of the the general pitching situation in Milwaukee. We all know that Turnbow and McClung aren't any good, but the delusion that Bush was any thing but a 6th or 7th starter in a five man rotation, well... (what do we call that kind of pitcher? Has he regressed to a AAAA ball player?).

[endaround]

The delusion that a 4.57 career ERA makes one a 6 or 7 starter is what we call... oh yes a low information Brewer fan

[sgtcluels]

I think that's the most baffling thing. Yost and the FO have constantly this season said it's all about production. About what "you are doing for the team now". And it sure seems that Turnbow isn't doing anything for the team, so why again does he have a job?

 

Turnbow has a full 3.00 WHIP. That means he on average puts up 3 runners on base during each IP.

 

Bush has a 1.46 WHIP. Half as bad as Turnbow.

 

So which case is it Yost/FO, is it who's producing now or is it "my pet Turnbow"? I'm frustrated with the decision on keeping Turnbow and sending a serviceable player down.

[pete]

Dave Bush could easily be a back-end rotation guy on at least a couple of Major League teams, I'm honestly almost baffled you don't

think he could be on a major league team.

 

 

I don't think that just because other teams have weaknesses or lack of depth, that they would want more of the same. Just because players exist on rosters with similar numbers doesn't mean that a team wants that situation.

 

McClung pitched in ST, started in Nashville last year, and played in Milwaukee for a few as well. I assume that the hate for him by various people is due to the fact that a fan favorite is being squeezed out.

[pete]

The delusion that a 4.57 career ERA makes one a 6 or 7 starter is what we call... oh yes a low information Brewer fan

 

 

Someone's career ERA doesn't determine where they play. But a career 4.57? That sounds like someone who should be a member of the media.

[1992casey]

a low information Brewer fan

 

Please avoid unnecessary condescension.

[endaround]

Someone's career ERA doesn't determine where they play. But a career 4.57? That sounds like someone who should be a member of the media.

Career ERA of 4.57? Fan favorite that should retire!

Career ERA of 6.16? Pitcher who gets bad treatment from the fans!

This is bordering on trollish behavior

 

[Fatter than Joey]

The 7.88 ERA as a RP doesn't make me much happier,

 

You, of all people shouldn't be scared of a reliever's ERA based on 8 IP. Shame on you! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif -- Especially when that same pitcher has 100s of other innings of work.

 

McClung won't be pitching many high-leverage innings once the inordinate amount of extra inning games slows down.

 

I don't think this will be the case -- Again, McClung has pitched meaningful games in 4 of 5 appearances, some of the appearances came before the recent onslaught of extra inning games. There are probably a couple of factors that lead to McClung pitching in meaningful spots: Extra inning games, bad management by Yost, starters not going deep into the game, ineffectiveness of other relievers -- whatever the reason is, I think it is not prudent to assume that McClung will be pitching only or even predominantly in garbage innings. Furthermore, Mota/Riske are pretty shaky as well, I think there is a good chance Bush could provide better results than those 2 currently are.

 

That is worth it to me considering that 1 in 3 pitchers hit the DL every single year(and Sheets odds are higher than most as are Parras)

 

I understand this. Parra has not demonstrated that he can pitch 5 innings w/o throwing 100 pitches at the MLB level. Bush would probably get 4-5 innings every 5 days finishing Parra's games (sort of a #5.5 starter.). Of course, I think the most prudent thing to do would be to send Parra down until he can get 7-8 innings under his belt.

 

We all know that Turnbow and McClung aren't any good, but the delusion that Bush was any thing but a 6th or 7th starter in a five man rotation

 

I cannot believe I am defending Dave Bush... I have never thought he was the 2/3 pitcher some hoped he may have been -- but he isn't below a #5. He may be the 6th best starter on the Brewers, but Bush is not a AAAA pitcher.

 

If Jeff Weaver has to start one game, I am OK with that --if Bush can contribute to our BP, he will conceivably help 2-3 times a week. While the "emergency start" will probably at most happen once a month.

 

Parra is killing our BP right now, but is not getting crushed, the Brewers are 3-1 in his starts, even though he is only going 4 or 5 innings -- If the Brewers are intent on Parra working this out at the ML level, it seems (more likely than an injury) that the BP is going to have to pick up 4 innings in his starts. I'd rather Bush pick up those innings than McClung.

 

Bush could contribute in more games in the BP, than a Weaver/Narveson would in an injury situation over the course of a month.

[pete]

Selective use of statistics with no mention of skill level, history or abilities: weak argument.

 

Accusation of borderline trollish behavior: a swinging K.

[Mr QL]

Why is Turnbow still on this team? I don't know what else he has to do for us to finally get rid of him.

[JohnBriggs12]

A positive from the big picture perspective is that assuming Bush spends at least a month or two at AAA, it certainly will dampen his numbers as he heads to his 2nd arby year this offseason. Had he hung around all season, been his usual mediocre self but again put up a dozen or so wins, he would likely have seen his arby award in the $4 million plus range.

 

I can also understand the need to have Bush pitch regularly with the constant threat that Sheets will go down. If not for Sheets' past and present issues, it would be nice to have a Bush as a long man in the pen. But they can't afford that luxury.

[Tbadder]

The delusion that a 4.57 career ERA makes one a 6 or 7 starter is what we call... oh yes a low information Brewer fan

If he was good enough he would've stayed. He's obviously on the downside. I'm not a stat guy, but I bet his stats have gotten worse the last three years. Would we be afraid of him if he was on the Cubs? And if we were, what would that say about our team?