OF Gabe Gross traded to Tampa Bay for minor league pitcher Josh Butler

[Fatter than Joey]

For every time Gabe would have provided a late inning HR there will be a time Gwynn makes a great play in the field to prevent the need for said late inning HR.

 

Once Cameron is back -- Gwynn's defensive "abilities" will no longer be needed --- but just about every game you need a LH PHer to come off of the bench -- I'd just as soon it wasn't Counsell.

 

Juan Pierre, even if he is grossly overpaid, and Luis Castillo are the only two that readily spring to mind.

 

I am not a fan of either of these dudes -- but I'd take Pierre over TGJ in a heartbeat. Pierre (besides his 60+ SBs), has always managed to get his SLG over his OBP, something that Castillo and TGJ are unable to do. Of course Castillo is a GG 2b, so he has value outside his bat.

 

I'm betting that Kapler is worth zip and gwynn is worth zip and Gross is worth a low-prospect.

 

This is the million dollar question to me -- I would love to ask DM if he tried to trade TGJ, but Gross netted more return. Maybe DM would have rather kept Gross, but couldn't get any takers for TGJ -- I can certainly live with that. If DM kept TGJ over Gross because DM valued TGJ more, I would have more problems with the trade.

 

I do a lot of complaining about the lack of pitching depth in the Brewers farm, so if this Butler dude, has a good arm, and gives us some pitching depth, I am all for the trade.

 

I do think the timing of the trade is poor, with 14 pitchers on our roster, and Jeff Suppan leading the PHing charge off of the bench. The roster seems like a mess now.

 

The Richie Sexson Deal, the gift that keeps on giving!

 

Actually this is part of the Gary Sheffield deal -- we traded to get Sexson, so it seems arbitrary to start at that point.

[MJLiverock]

Gabe Gross was a mediocre player, as long as you remember that mediocre means average and average players in their cost-controlled phase have a lot of value to an MLB team.

According to Dictionary.com Mediocre is not average.

 

me·di·o·cre http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png

-adjective

1.	of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.

2.	rather poor or inferior.

This about sums up my feelings on Gross as a player. Decent LH bat off the bench, bad CF option, average D for a corner guy, can't hit LH pitchers at all, best attribute is ability to walk. Not an everyday player. I never really cared for the point of brining up his minor league numbers, his ability to hit AA pitching 6 years ago really doesn't matter, if it did, then Ben Hendrickson would be an all star pitcher. Gross has been in the majors enough to show he is what he is, a 4th or 5th OFer. Gwynn brings a different skill set for the 4th/5th OF spot. I'll take the potential upside of the minor league pitcher they got since I don't think the Gross/Gwynn change will make or break the Brewers and somebody had to go with Cameron coming back.

[RobertR]

While I'm not enamored with Gwynn offensively, I think there was room for both Gwynn and Gross on the team. I'm not sure going forward that we couldn't get everything we can expect from Kapler offensively from Dillon, with more position flexibility to boot.

 

Robert

[joepepsi]

I'm not real happy about this. I liked Gabe, and I thought he could have been a good player if he would have gotten some consistent playing time.

I've always felt this way too. Once they signed Kapler, I figured Gross' days as a Brewer were numbered. He was going to be arbitration eligible after this season, so his price would probably exceed the value of his role on the team. On the other hand, the Rays could always non tender him after the year and BrewCrew could bring him back!

 

[HurricaneBraun]

I read on another site that Weeks is next to go, any truth to this?

[creamcityfan]

Did any one notice on TV right after the game Gross was coming back to the dugout and a man with a tie came and grabbed Gross to tell him about the trade. I wasn't one of his biggest fans, but i wish him all the best.

[Bucky Rules]

The only thing that concerns me is that Gross was our only LH stick with any power on the team (besides Prince of course). Other than that, I don't have any problem with trading him. If DM thinks this kid has an arm that can help at some point, I'm all for it.

Some seem concerned that now our only option off the bench for PH or for long term injury replacement is TGJ. Personally, I think it very well could be Joe Dillon unless it's Cameron that gets hurt. I don't think he'll be in the minors very long once the roster gets settled. We're not going to carry 176 pitchers all year. I see TGJ as a defensive replacement (double-switch type) and a PR. I'm sure he'll get some5th, 6th and 7th inning PH opportunities, but he's likely to be a rung lower on the PH chain than Counsell, Dillon, and Kapler. The marginal difference that Gross could make as a PH in exchange for some clearing up of the roster and a potential future arm seems like a reasonable exchange to me. I don't think it's a big deal one way or the other.

[HurricaneBraun]

This Butler kid is 0-2 in single A, with a near 7 era. I dont know about this one.

[jazzytrav]

I take a day off and there's only 10 pages on this? I'm disappointed in you guys http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

WSSP was brutal to listen to on my way back from the game yesterday. Apparently TGJ is a far superior player. I won't disagree that they're close given the difference in their talents, but far superior?

 

This also makes me wonder if TGJ and Gross were both offered, and the Rays took Gross. That would be interesting.

[BrewCrewForever]

I would assume when all this pitching stuff is settled and Cameron is back our bench will consist of Gwynn, Dillon, Kapler, Rivera and Counsell. Which will take us down to 12 pitchers.

[BrewCrewForever]

Meet Josh Butler:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2006/06/03/2Whp8VSe.jpg

 

From the blurb I read about him on the JS Brewer Blog from Baseball America he has some great stuff. Could end up being a hell of a deal by DM.

[RobertR]

I would assume when all this pitching stuff is settled and Cameron is back our bench will consist of Gwynn, Dillon, Kapler, Rivera and Counsell. Which will take us down to 12 pitchers.

I'm thinking that we're probably looking at Dillon vs. Nelson vs. Branyan for that last spot on the bench. I'd lean towards a lefty, probably Nelson, for umpteen reasons stated above. Offensively, I'm not sure what Dillon gives you that Kapler doesn't.

 

Robert

[And That]

I read on another site that Weeks is next to go, any truth to this?

Probably not, no. Why would they trade Weeks?

This Butler kid is 0-2 in single A, with a near 7 era. I dont know about this one.

It's a good thing baseball players aren't judged on three A-ball starts.

[funkyplaidcoat]

Good luck Gross. Looking forward to see if the "playing everyday" theory is true in his case (I mean that sincerely).

 

Meanwhile, I thought there was a lot of negativity in the Jsonline blog comments, but you guys should check out the negative comment posted to the Gross Article on Tampa Bay Online.

[sargennm]

I'm not real happy about this. I liked Gabe, and I thought he could have been a good player if he would have gotten some consistent playing time.

I've always felt this way too. Once they signed Kapler, I figured Gross' days as a Brewer were numbered. He was going to be arbitration eligible after this season, so his price would probably exceed the value of his role on the team. On the other hand, the Rays could always non tender him after the year and BrewCrew could bring him back!

 

I think that's the key right there. We got a interesting minor league pitcher for a guy we would've let walk at the end of the year anyway. I do think that if the lack of a lefty-power bat continues to be an issue, Melvin will trade for a guy who is much better.

 

[BrewCrewForever]

I would assume when all this pitching stuff is settled and Cameron is back our bench will consist of Gwynn, Dillon, Kapler, Rivera and Counsell. Which will take us down to 12 pitchers.

I'm thinking that we're probably looking at Dillon vs. Nelson vs. Branyan for that last spot on the bench. I'd lean towards a lefty, probably Nelson, for umpteen reasons stated above. Offensively, I'm not sure what Dillon gives you that Kapler doesn't.

 

Robert

If they chose Nelson or Branyan over Dillon I suppose I would be okay with that as well.

[davego]

I'm not sure this site will withstand a Russell promotion.

[yfinn6]

Probably not, no. Why would they trade Weeks?

Fire sale; this team is already out of it. With the Cubs thinking about the world series, we might as well pack it in and start playing for '09.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

According to Dictionary.com Mediocre is not average.

 

Off topic, I know, but I can't resist comment.

 

Etymologically, mediocre is derived from Latin. medius ("middle") + ocris ("jagged mountain") = mediocris (Literally - "halfway up the mountain" Figuratively - "of middling height or state")

 

I just wanted to take a moment to say shame on dictionary.com for empowering the legions of humans who have misused and continue to misuse this relatively simple concept. I understand, they probably view their task as chronicling the actual use of language, not dictating its proper use. There's even something to be said for this perspective. But when the root of a word is obviously middle, to take it to mean "rather poor" is patently absurd.

 

Another note for everyone: stop saying "decimated" when you mean "utterly destroyed" or "annihilated". Decimation is a precise term that means losing 1/10 of one's ground forces in a particular ground battle. There was a time when 10% losses were very significant, before we invented tanks and machine guns and such. Anyway, your favorite football team isn't "decimated" when they're losing 45-0, but you could say the defense has been "decimated" if the free safety goes down with a ligament tear.

 

Oh, and Dillon better be up again and that right quick. What he gives you that Kapler doesn't is sustainably decent hitting. He's significantly better than Branyan and Nelson too.

[bjkrautk]

I would assume when all this pitching stuff is settled and Cameron is back our bench will consist of Gwynn, Dillon, Kapler, Rivera and Counsell. Which will take us down to 12 pitchers.

I'm thinking that we're probably looking at Dillon vs. Nelson vs. Branyan for that last spot on the bench. I'd lean towards a lefty, probably Nelson, for umpteen reasons stated above. Offensively, I'm not sure what Dillon gives you that Kapler doesn't.

 

Robert

 

Dillon can play on the corners in the infield as well as the outfield; Kapler can play all 3 outfield spots, but that flexibility isn't as necessary. Seeing as how there is no backup for Prince, and Counsell covers the other 3 infield positions, I can see the need for another infielder on the roster.

(Yes, I know that Branyan fellow can play the IF corners....but that wasn't Robert's question. Of course, the question wasn't about defense either....but that's not my point.)

[JohnBriggs12]

Just because the everyday lineup is unbalanced with right handed sticks, doesn't mean they should have a bench unbalanced with lefthanded sticks which would make it tough vs. left handed relievers. Ideally, you have 4 hitters on your bench plus the catcher with 2 right handed and 2 lefthanded, ie: Counsell and Gwynn from the left side, Kapler and Dillon from the right side. Counsell figures to spell any of 3 guys from time to time just as he has. Gwynn figures to spell the 35 year old Cameron once in a while and I'm sure they'll find a way to get Kapler in there too. Finding time for Dillon is tough.

 

I think they'll stick with 13 pitchers at least until Dillon is eligible to be recalled, maybe longer depending on the pitching situation. He's the one bench guy who needs AB's down there to keep him sharp because he doesn't figure to start much at all. I wouldn't be surprised if they send him down 2 or 3 times this season.

[jazzytrav]

Dillon can play on the corners in the infield as well as the outfield; Kapler can play all 3 outfield spots, but that flexibility isn't as necessary.

Yup. With Cameron and Gwynn, there's really no need for 3 guys that can play CF if you can get a guy that can play the corners in the IF and OF.

 

Just because the everyday lineup is unbalanced with right handed sticks, doesn't mean they should have a bench unbalanced with lefthanded sticks which would make it tough vs. left handed relievers.

Also agreed. If it's a lefty reliever and we need to PH for the pitcher, we don't want to have Gwynn, Gross, Counsell, and Branyan on the bench. I realize that would probably have never been the case, but you get the point.

[jazzytrav]

Here's a fun little line in the article that funkyplaidcoat posted (great screen name, btw):

 

Gross, who was acquired by Milwaukee in the trade last year that sent 1B Lyle Overbay to Toronto...

When was that trade again?

[twobrewers]

Baseball America's take on Butler...

 

At his best, Butler has an average fastball that can touch 94 mph and two good breaking balls. With his delivery and frame I always thought he was best suited as a middle guy but he is athletic and could exceed my expectations. I thought it was a good deal for both clubs as I've indicated.

[jazzytrav]

Also, not sure if this has been posted yet because I don't feel like plowing through the last 10 pages of this thread, but Butler was 9-4 with a 3.34 ERA and 1.22 WHIP between A and High A last year. At A he was 5-1 with a 2.33 ERA and a 1.07 WHIP which got him promoted, and he just struggled a little when he hit High A.

 

As much as I don't like moving Gross, I'm glad we got someone better than Max St. Pierre for him.