OF Gabe Gross traded to Tampa Bay for minor league pitcher Josh Butler

[And That]

What does this Butler guy project to be?

Take a look at the first few pages of the thread.

 

[Glennron]

A guy who hit .091 against RH and .244 against LH and not a very good OBP last year. The "pop" wasn't and isn't very evident. A decent defender but not much more.

 

Not even close to what Gwynn brings to the team. Definitely a better team this year. I can't believe that people wanted to use a roster spot on the guy.

For starters, even "Gross supporters" agree he shouldn't be used against left handers, so saying he hit .091 against them (in 11 at bats no less) is kind of pointless. Second, his OBP was 94 points higher than his average, which I'd say is good. People don't like him because he can hit for average, they like him because he had one of the best plate disciplines on the team. Although I disagree that Gwynn brings more to the team, I can respect that you and other people feel that way. However, to say "I can't believe that people wanted to use a roster spot on the guy" is just ignorance.

[EdgarDiazRocks]

The "pop" wasn't and isn't very evident.

Depends on how you look. 16 HR in 400 AB over the last two years is pretty good for a non starter if you ask me.

 

And that doesn't include Nashville . . .

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1081/1033339970_06f90441ce.jpg

[monty57]

For a sinkerballer comp, I checked Webb and he was over 9 per 9 in A ball.

 

Is that really fair? I mean, Webb is potentially the best pitcher in baseball. If Butler turns into a 4/5 starter or a good BP arm, I think this will turn out to be a good trade. Someone sees something in him to pick him with a high 2nd round pick, and to rank him #16 in Tampa's system.

 

I am sad to see Gabe go. It was nice to see someone on the Brewers take walks, but as has been said, Gabe seems to play best when given extended PT, and that's not likely to happen with the Brewers. I hope he sees a lot of action in Tampa and makes the most of it.

[areacodes]

A guy who hit .091 against RH and .244 against LH and not a very good OBP last year. The "pop" wasn't and isn't very evident. A decent defender but not much more.

 

Not even close to what Gwynn brings to the team. Definitely a better team this year. I can't believe that people wanted to use a roster spot on the guy.

Go back and look at post #112 and you can see what he brings to the team... and what Gywnn doesn't.

 

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

I was comparing their "prospect" level. (If that makes any sense)

 

Yeah, all you really said was that they had similar value. That might even be fairly accurate. Butler was a recent 2nd round pick, and high draft status does confer a lot of prospect value. But even if that's true, in my view it says more about how prospects are (improperly) valued than it does about how good Butler or Inman actually are. If I'm a Rays fan, I'm happy that my team got a genuine major leaguer for a guy we just drafted that (it turns out) is a sinkerballer that gives up too many homers and can't strike out A-ballers. In other words, a guy who up until now has looked like an overdraft.

[GormanHarvey]

Good luck to you Gabe and thanks for the help today - I really did not think you had it in you to steal off Molina. Best wishes (just don't let TB play you in centerfield!)

[Menace II Sobriety]

Not that I disagree with this trade at all, Melvin always finds nuggets that seem to work out ala the moustached one Villanueva but for those that say "hey we got a 2nd rounder" for Gross I would like to point out that he was the 15th pick of the 2001 draft so we actually traded a 1st rounder for a 2nd rounder. Obviously there is slotting and monetary concerns in the MLB draft but Gross was thought to be at least an average everyday MLB player otherwise there is no way you are a first rounder. He wouldn't have gone that high if the Blue Jays weren't being cheap on the draft but he is a very athletic player and will be missed with a cannon for an arm . You cannot have enough stand up guys on a team. I have no clue about about Butler as a player but it never hurts to have more arms, we might be 15-16 on the big club this weekend the way the pen is getting worn out this week having to play 13 straight days.

[Brewguru2]

I'd have been happy with Gabe in left field replacing Jenkins. Keep Braun at third and Hall in center.

Dunno why he never got a chance to be a starter.

 

Because he's not any good?

[Brewguru2]

I am so glad Gabe Gross is out of Milwaukee. I don't understand the irrational love affair with this mediocre player. A 7-page thread on him? LOL.

 

Gross had 6 good weeks in Milwaukee. His first month here in '06 and 2 weeks after he was called up from Nashville last August. You look up mediocrity in the dictionary and there's his picture.

 

I'm glad he's gone and only wish I could have driven him to the airport.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Is that really fair?

 

No, probably not. Checking some other guys who rely heavily on the sinker shows that lower strikeout rates aren't terribly uncommon. But it seems like everyone I can think of (Wang, Carmona, Westbrook, Derek Lowe, Shawn Hill) was already at least in AA by the time they were Butler's age, making direct comparison somewhat difficult. I may have spoken a bit hastily though. I feel encouraged that it's not totally impossible for someone with crappy A-ball K-rates to eventually become an effective major league pitcher.

[monty57]

What's more important, K rate or K/BB ratio? Butler's K rate may be lower than some would like, but he has over a 2:1 K:BB ratio, and he is a sinkerball pitcher with an outstanding 2.59 GO/AO ratio. Sounds like he may be a guy with pretty good command and a dominant sinker. Put a decent defense behind this guy and he could be good. Of course, it is A ball, and he is 23.

[twobrewers]

The biggest argument for keeping Gross was that he was a pretty ideal candidate as a 4th OF/Pinch Hitter.

The only problem is that he was so poor against LHP, if he ever pinch hit in a real pressure situation - the other team would just bring in a LHP.

I'd be shocked if trading Gross kept us from making the playoffs.

[Ennder]

I am so glad Gabe Gross is out of Milwaukee. I don't understand the irrational love affair with this mediocre player. A 7-page thread on him? LOL.

 

Gross had 6 good weeks in Milwaukee. His first month here in '06 and 2 weeks after he was called up from Nashville last August. You look up mediocrity in the dictionary and there's his picture.

 

I'm glad he's gone and only wish I could have driven him to the airport.

I agree, he was a mediocre backup player at best, the problem is we are now stuck with Gwynn who is even worse than Gross.

[monty57]

Good point twobrewers, but I think the biggest chance this has of coming back to bite us on the rump is if Braun or Hart miss significant PT. Gross is probably a better hitter than Gwynn, and he is not a bad corner OF (he's just not a good CF). Now, if Braun or Hart gets hurt, we will platoon Gwynn with Kapler and/or Dillon. In my opinion, Gwynn's defensive superiority makes him a better backup option for CF, but not as a corner OF. A Kapler/Gwynn platoon for 2 or 3 months could very well be enough to keep us out of the playoffs. That said, I think this trade has a good chance of paying off, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread. However, it is not without some risk.

 

On that note, how is Brad Nelson playing? He finally seems to be hitting again. Could he possibly be brought up to fill a corner OF platoon role, or is he not a good enough OF to cut it?

[mothershipconnection]

Considering we have Cameron coming back soon and Kapler playing great as a fill-in, I'm pretty happy that we got a guy who was picked #47 two years ago for a backup OF. Only a maniac would think Kapler can keep this rate up, but we can hope he's not far from Gross' .766 OPS last year.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

Gabe Gross was a mediocre player, as long as you remember that mediocre means average and average players in their cost-controlled phase have a lot of value to an MLB team.

 

I disagree that he was a mediocre backup. I think he was a good to very good backup. I'm having trouble thinking of too many 4th outfielders who I think are true-talent average major league hitters. In our division, Matt Murton is probably better. That's all I got. Maybe I'm forgetting somebody, but the Astros traded Luke Scott, so...

 

Ennder's basic point is the correct one, though. Neither Gwynn nor Kapler is anything like as valuable a player as Gross. Their skills might fit better with traditional notions of what backup outfielders are supposed to be able to give to a team, but that's no reason for an intelligent organization to prefer them to an obviously better player.

 

Maybe there's something to the received wisdom that says a slappy singles hitter needs less playing time to keep being a slappy singles hitter whereas a power / patience guy like Gross needs more consistent at bats to be at his best. I don't know, I've never seen anybody bother to make an intelligent attempt to check if it was true. That's the only perspective from which the preference for Gwynn makes sense. If it's not that, it's the whole "he's buddies with Prince" angle, and that would mean that management kept one worse guy because he's friends with the team's best player and another worse guy because he's friends with management.

 

Not good. Granted, not likely to amount to a hill of beans one way or the other. Nonetheless...not good.

[treego]

There goes our 4th best outfielder.

 

I pretty much echo brettac's comments as well as DougJones's comments on Gross. He was a solid player that the stupid fans started hating because he got off to a 2-20 start while mostly pinch hitting. He gets a week of starts and he starts pounding the ball.

 

Meanwhile Gwynn is loved because he is fast, gritty and a gamer. Oh and because his name is Gwynn.

 

Gross isnt a worldbeater by any means, but he is about as good a 4th OF as you can expect to have.

I totally agree! Ditto! The Rays robbed the Brewers in this trade. What is Doug Melvin doing here? The Brewers are really underestimating Gross' ability and value, I believe. Terrible trade!

 

[rluzinski]

I don't have any problem with the trade, with regard to the relative talents of the two players involved. What I don't like is the possibility of Gwynn getting starts in left or right field (and he's obviously going to get some under the current arrangement. Melvin better have a plan.

[treego]

I guess we had enough solid LH sticks on the team already? It's hopefully not going to be a big deal anyway but I don't see how anyone thinks this makes the team better this year. And if Hart or Braun miss any significant playing time, it's going to be comical to see the kind of offensive production we'll be getting out of one of the corner outfield spots.

 

Remember how your parents told you to look to the LEFT and to the RIGHT before crossing the street. Well, I don't think Doug Melvin's parents told him that. Melvin crossed Trade Street today and got squashed by a Ray-Mobile.

 

First, we dump Claudio Vargas. Now, we dump Gabe Gross. Are we looking to get better or not this season?

[BucEbadger]

I gotta say i think this was a move to open spots up on the 40.. Guess a few teams had been after Gross from ST on and Melvin finally got something offered he liked... Gross seemed to be getting better the more he played but for some reason Hart Braun and MC will be the starters all year it looks like... Gotta say i think Gwynn is more of a bench type of player this year as he gonna be used as a PH, PR and defensive replacements on double switches.. Gross i just can see him being that kind of player a guy who can settle in and be that kind of guy IMO he seemed like a guy who wanted to be a starter from day one and never given that chance.... How many 40 man spots we have open now??

[BREWCREW5]

In Melvin we trust.

Nice guy but Gross pretty much sucks (especially offensively). Matt Murton cant break the cubs roster and he wasnt even the first outfielder to bring up when a starting outfielder went down. Nothing lost here and we get a young arm for the future.

[RobertR]

When the heck did Tony Gwynn ever get good for more than a handful of ABs? And Gabe Kapler could turn back into a pumpkin at any minute. Seriously, go check his numbers in Boston. The idea of Gwynn and Kapler as depth, especially in case of injury to a corner outfielder, scares the heck out of me. Especially since the case for Gwynn being able to contribute offensively this year is based on 7 whole ABs.

 

If the Brewers go out and acquire someone to hold down 4th outfielder that's better than Gross, fine. But in the absence of a real replacement, the Brewers will have a weaker bench, exasperated by carrying too many pitchers.

 

Robert

[Gopher74]

We get it -- you either loathe or misunderstand OBP & SLG.

Yes. That's it. We're all being totally irrational with Russel the Muscle. So are the 5 organizations that he's been with in the last 2+ years. And his career lines of .229/.327 with a K more than every 3 times up?

 

It's more than a little condescending to suggest that if someone doesn't think Branyan's a good player that they're simply not able to understand OBP and SLG. Maybe those who "misunderstand it" are the ones who think .196/.327 and a good SLG makes for a good player?

 

[colbyjack]

I think the timing of this trade is indicative of how excited the organization is to get a talent like Butler in return, especially from a talent-loaded system like the Rays' as others have noted. I know first-hand that the Brewers were very interested in Josh Butler two years ago at this point in time as the 2006 draft approached, and I even had the opportunity to speak with him as part of my work with Perfect Game:

 

http://www.pgcrosschecker.com/crackthebat/patrick_ebert/06_05_05_josh_butler/