OF Gabe Gross traded to Tampa Bay for minor league pitcher Josh Butler

[naivin]

We get it -- you either loathe or misunderstand OBP & SLG.

No, I understand 'em fine, but at the risk of turning this into another Russ Branyan thread, I have to wonder if you do, considering that Branyan's career OBP and SLG numbers are both almost identical to those of Wes Helms and Kevin Mench, and appreciably worse than Geoff Jenkins. I don't recall consistent cries for those guys to get more AB's when they were here.

[ELCABALLO45]

I like this trade. Alot of upset people for a guy who hit .091 off of Leftys last year, and only .244 off rightys. He is a career .243 hitter. Yeah he draws walks and has "some" power, but we have enough power on the team. He is a butcher in the field, and probably cost the team a couple runs already with his bad defense. After saying all that, I did kinda like him. But I think everyone got a little to excited when he hit the Grand Slam last year, and everyone drank WAY to much Kool Aid.

 

And as someone already said,

 

The Richie Sexson Deal, the gift that keeps on giving!

[Glennron]

Gwynn and Kapler can hit on par and can field better.

I'm sorry, but to me this isn't very close. In 1800+ minor league at bats Gwynn's line is .273/.349/.344 with 99 extra base hits. An average major leaguer who plays a full season gets about 600 at bats, so that would equate to about 33 extra base hits over a full season, which is pretty terrible for a position player. The only thing he was (slightly) better at than Gross was hitting for average. Gross was better in getting on base, slugging, extra base hits and so on. Unless Gwynn develops better plate discipline and takes more walks, he is not a better hitter than Gross. I know Gwynn Jr. is better at defense and has some speed, but to me that doesn't make up for the gap in hitting.

[TooLiveBrew]

No, I understand 'em fine...

 

Russell Branyan hits for a low BA. He draws BBs much better than any of the guys you mentioned. When he does hit the ball, he hits it very hard on balance. .327 career OBP with a .478 career SLG for an .805 OPS. I think you either neglect to recognize this, or misunderstand Branyan. There are many PH situations in which you not only want a hit, but you want an XBH. Branyan provides a very good chance for that, and if he doesn't get that, he provides a very good chance of a BB.

 

Entering 2008, Branyan had 262 BBs in 1800+ career AB -- an incredibly good ratio, as is Gross's 90 in 612. You've been ragging on Gross, and now on Branyan. It really appears you neglect to consider BB rates.

 

 

Yeah he draws walks and has "some" power, but we have enough power on the team.

 

There is no such thing as "enough power"

 

He is a butcher in the field, and probably cost the team a couple runs already with his bad defense.

 

Patently false. He might have cost the team a run or two, but certainly saved just as many. To call him a "butcher" is just misrepresentation.

[RU Rah Rah]

I'm sorry to see a fellow Balto. native go. Plus, the Brewers can no longer boast of having 2 of the 7 major leaguers ever named "Gabe."

[twobrewers]

I would have to think that Butler's value as a prospect is pretty close to Inman.

 

I agree with the "we sold low, but better than nothing" sentiment. With Gwynn getting healthy and Cameron coming back - something had to give. And we got a decent prospect in return.

 

Best of luck to Gross.

[Never Outhustled]

Butler is the 16th ranked prospect in the #1 ranked system in baseball. Now that he's in the #21st ranked system, he'd easily rank in the top 10. hard worker, good velocity, solid productivity. Gross was a nice role player, but we should be able to develop more players of his ilk.

[bigredrobbo]

I'm sorry to see good guys go, and I would have liked a more advanced prospect, but what the hey, "In Doug We Trust", right?

[trwi7]

I know this Butler gets a lot of ground balls but are the lack of strike outs concerning to anybody?

[iluvlamp]

Help win a game and get shipped. Probably the story of his life. Bye Gabe. I didn't always like you but I like you. Glad to see you brought a sack of baseballs for your efforts.

[saget]

I will miss his inspirational walk-up music. Nothing says, "get on base" like Christian rock.

[jaybird2001wi]

Apparently, the Rays were talking with Melvin even during Spring Training about getting Gross. This is what the Rays' GM said after the acquisition, per the link above:

"He's somebody we've actually talked to them about since Spring Training," said Rays executive vice president of baseball operations Andrew Friedman. "We feel like he's going to help us defensively. And we like his bat against right-handed pitching. We feel like he has a good mixture at the plate between patience and power from the left side. And feel like he'll fit us and help us win games."

 

Gross will likely be platooning with Jonny Gomes in right field, but the article states otherwise. I wonder who we will add to the 40-man now that Gross has been shipped off? Tampa Bay already had a spot waiting for him there with the DFA of Mike DiFelice.

[RyDogg66]

Just ridiculous comments. Stupid fand started hating him because he got off to a 2-20 start? Apparently you missed last season, and the rest of his rather ho hum career.

 

That whole Gwynn is named Gwynn argument is quite tired as well. Do you think Doug Melvin is keeping him around because his name is Gwynn? You know better than that.

 

If Gross is as good as you guys seem to think he is, he was certainly the wrong guy for the role he was expected to fill here. If he needs to play regularly to produce, this was certainly the wrong place for him. I got news for you, he isn't going to get a week of starts here once Cameron returns, so if he can't play well without regular at bats, how does his presence here help the Brewers? The Brewers need a back-up outfilder...the last guy off the bench, not a guy who needs regular PT to have value.

 

Seems to me the Brewers did him a favor by providing a chance to play every day, and I suspect Doug will say that was part of it, as he obviously had no place in the Brewers plans, so getting something for him makes sense.

Gwynn

Majors: .271/.314/.329 = .643 OPS

Minors: .273/.349/.344 = .693 OPS

 

Gross

Majors .241/.341/.398 = .739 OPS

Minors: .286/.380/.449 = .829 OPS

 

I just think for depth purposes they kept the wrong guy.

 

[naivin]

TooLiveBrew[/b]]I think you either neglect to recognize this, or misunderstand Branyan. There are many PH situations in which you not only want a hit, but you want an XBH. Branyan provides a very good chance for that, and if he doesn't get that, he provides a very good chance of a BB.

You can repeat that I don't realize this, or don't understand that as many times as you want, but that won't necessarily make it true. He draws walks, and that's great, but you argue against yourslef by talking about what a big part of his OBP that accounts for. If you are looking for a guy to provide not only a hit, but and XBH, not sure Branyan and his .229 career average (Roughly .160/.300/.300 as PH) would be at the top of the list of guys I'd want up there. Again, nothing in his past suggests that he provides a very good chance for that as you put it.

 

Anyway, I'll stop talking about Russel Branyan in this thread (I'm sure there will be no shortage of opportunities now that Gross is gone). I just find it odd that he keeps coming up around here, and all that he supposedly brings to the table, yet he continually doesn't produce, and teams can't seem to get rid of him fast enough. All these GM's must not understand OBP and SLG. If we see him in a Brewer uniform this year, that will be a clear sign that the season has not gone very well.

[And That]

I wonder who we will add to the 40-man now that Gross has been shipped off?

No one, until we have to... Cameron is technically not on the 40-man roster, but Melvin and co. haven't been shy about leaving 40-man spots open.

[RyDogg66]

Nobody is saying BRanyan or Gross should start in Milwaukee. Just that for depth purposes they are decent players. Certainly better hitting options than Gwynn and the wet noodle he takes to the plate with him.

[pogokat]

Inman's not a good comp to Butler...Inman's younger than him, a league above him, 6 inches shorter than him and k's more guys...

 

statistically he's more like Alex Periard, in that he gets round outs...but much larger and possibly more projectable...

 

i like Butler...getting a 2nd round pick for Gross is sweet...even if it hurts a bench that pretty much sucked before hand...

 

i'm ready for a russ branyan/ brad nelson on the bench...actually...there used to be this guy that played here that played slick d in the corner and mashed righties...what was his name again? Geoff something?? I digress...

 

This hurts the team...though not enough to really matter...once cameron is back, gross was looking at 2-3 ab's a week, so it is inconsequential then..

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

I know this Butler gets a lot of ground balls but are the lack of strike outs concerning to anybody?

 

Yes. Just 100 in 140 pro innings so far. All IP at A+ or lower, and he was old for his leagues. A real prospect should be able to fan around a guy an inning under those conditions. If you look at pitchers who become successful major leaguers, even the ones whose success looks unsustainable due to low K-rates, usually they're around 1 K/IP in A ball. Brian Bannister, for instance, struck out 8.5 per 9 over his first couple of pro campaigns. You usually don't see a dropoff to K numbers like Butler's until AA. For a sinkerballer comp, I checked Webb and he was over 9 per 9 in A ball.

 

I don't see him as in any way comparable to Inman. I wouldn't give one Inman for 3 Butlers, but I'm higher on Inman than most because I don't care very much about radar gun readings and not a whit about height measurements.

 

At least they got something for Gross. On the downside, there were two non-replacement level hitters on the bench to start the season. They sent one of them down to AAA and now traded the other. They've certainly put a lot of eggs in the Gabe Kapler basket. Never let rational thinking get in the way of a good story / good ol' boy network I guess.

[jaybird2001wi]

By the way, here is the anatomy of the Sexson trade, with asterisks of how others were acquired:

 

Brewers get:

2B Junior Spivey (traded to Washington for Tomo Ohka)

IF Craig Counsell

1B Lyle Overbay (traded to Toronto with P Ty Taubenheim for OF Gabe Gross, P Dave Bush and P Zach Jackson*)

C Chad Moeller

P Chris Capuano

P Jorge de la Rosa (traded to Kansas City for IF Tony Graffanino)

 

DBacks get:

1B Richie Sexson (acquired from Cleveland#)

P Shane Nance (acquired from Los Angeles@)

OF Noochie Varner (acquired from Detroit in Alex Sanchez deal)

 

* - Gabe Gross traded to Tampa Bay for minor league pitcher Josh Butler

# - July 28, 2000: Sexson traded by the Cleveland Indians with a player to be named later, Kane Davis, and Paul Rigdon to the Milwaukee Brewers for Bob Wickman, Steve Woodard, and Jason Bere. The Cleveland Indians sent Marco Scutaro (August 30, 2000) to the Milwaukee Brewers to complete the trade. ^

@ - July 23, 2002: Nance traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers with Ben Diggins to the Milwaukee Brewers for a player to be named later and Tyler Houston. The Milwaukee Brewers sent Brian Mallette (October 16, 2002) to the Los Angeles Dodgers to complete the trade.

^ - August 23, 1996: Traded by the New York Yankees with Gerald Williams to the Milwaukee Brewers for a player to be named later, Pat Listach, and Graeme Lloyd. The Milwaukee Brewers sent Ricky Bones (August 29, 1996) to the New York Yankees to complete the trade. Pat Listach returned to original teams on October 2, 1996. %+

% - March 26, 1992: Bones traded by the San Diego Padres with Matt Mieske and Jose Valentin to the Milwaukee Brewers for Gary Sheffield and Geoff Kellogg (minors).

+ - December 8, 1992: Traded by the Philadelphia Phillies to the Milwaukee Brewers for John Trisler (minors).

[bando1234]

Im fine with this trade. I wish Gabe the best & I hopes he does well for the Rays. I m willing to bet that Gross was the best overall backup outfielder we had(however I have not seen a full year of Kapler yet). If I want someone to start it would be Gross. However if I need a late innings defensive replacement I want Gwynn or Kapler. This being said Im not worried about our bench or backup outfielders, Im worried about our closer.

[Blancofan1]

I think this goes to show they have a lot of confidence in Hernan.

Totally agree with this statement. Also makes me wonder about what the Rays think of Rocco Baldelli's injury or sickness and if he will ever fit into their plans again.

[Tbadder]

Trading Gabe in the end won't matter because he was never going to be a difference maker.

 

He was a team-first, classy guy who provided occassional power and a decent OBP. But he truly was a liability in the field on a team where offense isn't a problem and defense was suspect at best. Even though I'm convinced that Gross is the better than Gwynn overall, he's a worse match for the Crew who need Tony's skill sets more.

 

If we need a lefthanded bat that badly then Melvin needs to trade for a starter, not keep a part timer around for the twice a week at bat.

 

The only thing that disappoints me is that the Kapler signing caused this. If Butler turns out it'll be a slam dunk trade because Gross isn't essential. But I would have DFAed Kapler and called up Gwynn.

[pete]

A guy who hit .091 against RH and .244 against LH and not a very good OBP last year. The "pop" wasn't and isn't very evident. A decent defender but not much more.

 

Not even close to what Gwynn brings to the team. Definitely a better team this year. I can't believe that people wanted to use a roster spot on the guy.

[twobrewers]

Inman's not a good comp to Butler...Inman's younger than him, a league above him, 6 inches shorter than him and k's more guys...

For the record, I wasn't comparing them as pitchers. I was comparing their "prospect" level. (If that makes any sense)

[Mr QL]

Baldelli is probably done I would think.

 

Gross went out well. Wish him luck in Tampa.

 

What does this Butler guy project to be?