4/20/08 Brewers (Gallardo) at Reds (Harang): 12:15 PM CDT

[endaround]

This would mark the first, unconditional, undebateable YOSTED game so far this season.

I could not disagree more. He pitched his $10 million closer. In a 3-1 game. With the bottom of the order up. It was probably the easiest decision that he will make all year. If there is a stretch in May or June where Gagne has saved 3 straight games and we are in the same situation for game 4, I would certainly hope Ned won't hesitate to trot Gagne back out there.

 

He's a proven closer being paid to close games for us. This was the easiest decision of the year. There was no debate.

Who cares how much Gagne makes? If he was making the minimum or 18 million, it was still stupid because he was likely the 5th best option at that point.

 

[Sheets4theHOF]

anyone defending yost right now is never going to criticize him. not only did he use gagne for a fourth straight day, he didn't have anyone warming up behind him just in case. brewers carry 14 pitchers and yost chooses the one with the tired arm because he can't get beyond basic baseball strategy.

 

then by the time torres was ready the winning run was walked on base.

 

gagne shares some of the blame (if you don't have it say so, don't gut it out), but hard to blame a pitcher with a tired arm. 16 years of major league coaching and pitcher management is still a complete mystery to him.

[dlk9s]

A loss in April counts exactly the same as a loss in September.

To make your point stronger, I point to the loss we blew against the Cubs last year when we went up 5-0 early and then A-Ram hit the GWHR in the 9th. Win that game, and we end up tied with them at the end of the season.

I'm not going to get too bent out of shape over every little loss, as there will be about 70 of them, but early games do count just as much as late games.

 

[Fatter than Joey]

Bako hits what looks like a low inside curveball/slider combo that had great location, to me.

 

That's a bad pitch to a left-handed hitter.

[giffted1]

That's a bad pitch to a left-handed hitter.

Since when? The pitch looked like it would have been a ball if Bako hadn't hit it.

[Fatter than Joey]

Since when?

 

Since always -- LHanded batters that throw with their RH, (which Bako is), have their dominant hand on the bottom of the bat. Therefore they have more of an uppercut swing which makes the worst pitch for a RHer to throw to a LHer the low inside pitch. -- Conversely, LHers like Bako struggle more with high inside pitches.

 

Of course this is a pretty general statement -- but Gagne put that pitch in the worst possible place -- low/inside right off the plate.

[JohnBriggs12]

Overlooked was the fact that after the game was tied, he left Gagne in to face another batter. Now I would assume he would never have used Gagne had the game stayed tied in extra innings, so there was no reason to leave him in there after the first two batters scored. Unless of course, you fail to get anyone else up for that possibility.

 

But today's game wasn't the only bad move of the series. Keeping the shift on vs. Griffey in Friday's game with a 5-0 lead was ludicrous too. Any hitter's job in that situation is to get on base. Period. Inviting a guy to bunt for an easy base is a stupid move.

[BadgerFan]

This game is the definition of "hindsight is 20/20."

 

If Ned doesn't use EG and Shouse, Riske, or Turnbow blows the save, everyone is up in arms about how our $10 million closer who has converted his last 4 saves wasn't in the game.

 

It's a lose/lose situation unless Gagne does his job.

[Fatter than Joey]

If Ned doesn't use EG and Shouse, Riske, or Turnbow blows the save, everyone is up in arms about how our $10 million closer who has converted his last 4 saves wasn't in the game.

 

False.

 

I am beginning to think that the word "everyone" needs to be in the cuss filter.

 

I was in the chat, and there were people that thought bringing in Gagne was a mistake before he threw a pitch, and then there were people who thought Gagne should get the ball. The people that thought Gagne should get the ball, were disappointed that the Brewers lost, but tended to think the goat was Gagne. The people that wanted Gagne to get rest thought the goat was Yost. Both were reasonable positions. The posters here are very consistent with their positions. Using blanket/strawpeople arguments are really getting old.

 

I didn't want to see Gagne today unless there was a 15 inning game or Yo would have gotten chased in the 2nd inning and the Brewers got back in the game.

[giffted1]

Since always -- LHanded batters that throw with their RH, (which Bako is), have their dominant hand on the bottom of the bat. Therefore they have more of an uppercut swing which makes the worst pitch for a RHer to throw to a LHer the low inside pitch. -- Conversely, LHers like Bako struggle more with high inside pitches.

A realize that lefties hit low inside pitches well, but I think most of the time lefties pull that pitch by Gagne foul or watch it go by.

[Al Lindro]

"...Yost chooses the one with the tired arm because he can't get beyond basic baseball strategy."

 

That's the key point. I am co-authoring a book with Bill James (in my dreams). He is critical of the "trot out the closer to start the 9th" mindset that has come to dominate MLB managerial thinking. Just by sheer LOGIC, one would have to agree that there are key situations in a game when you want to put your best short reliever in. Say it's the 7th inning, you are up by one (or even down by one) and the opponent has two on with no out. Why would you NOT be calling on your best short reliever right there? So ... the idea that the so-called "closer" is just a 9th inning guy is flawed.

 

But, in today's game we had a different situation. Stetter goes 6 up, 6 down in the 7th and 8th. And then he is invited to take a shower. Where is THAT notion coming from? Oh, yes, the stupid "book". Get the closer in there for the 9th ... but WHY? If Stetter (a) walks the first guy in the ninth, or (b) lets the tying run reach base, OK. Out of there. But, who is to say that he doesn't get 3 more outs without 2 runs scoring? Why is a closer a better option than HE, Stetter, is given his performance in the 7th and 8th. Watch him closely. Get him out if he falters. But for crying out loud, give him a chance to show he can go 3 innings. What's wrong with that thinking?

 

I swear, some "baseball guys" think that good managing amounts to adopting every informal rule of thumb in the game, all the conventional wisdom, all the "by the book" stuff. If that's what they think they need to do to be successful, then I submit they will always be mediocre managers, blessed from time to time by great talent that overcomes their mediocrity, and cursed at times by poor talent that makes their mediocrity glaringly unacceptable --- at which point they become the 3rd base coach for the Marlins or something.

 

If you agree with Bill James and me, I promise to send you an autographed copy of our new book when it is released.

[Fatter than Joey]

A realize that lefties hit low inside pitches well, but I think most of the time lefties pull that pitch by Gagne foul or watch it go by.

 

I seriously doubt many hitters like Bako are going to watch that pitch go by that is in his wheelhouse. It was a bad pitch.

[ELCABALLO45]

I just stopped by to say...

 

YOSTED

 

And im a Yost backer....

[Blancofan1]

Tired---Shouse pitched like 4 pitches yesterday. He is a major league pitcher that is going to pitch to one or two guys a day at most. Yost has never used him for more than 1 to 3 lefties.

Really, Yost has never used him for more than 1 to 3 lefties. Um, yeah, do you follow Brewer games very closely? Do a little digging and see how often Shouse has only faced 1 to 3 lefties, and compare that to how often Yost uses him for several (more than three) batters or more than 1 inning in a game. I think that you will be surprised at what you find.

[strawbossisevil]

Ok, I tend to agree with Yost on many of his moves.

 

I didn't like the idea of trotting Gagne out for the fourth game in a row. I think the blame on this goes to both Yost and Gagne. Gagne for saying that he felt good enough to go an inning in today's game (since he obviously didn't have it), and Ned for not giving him a day off (we need him all year, overworking him here is not a great idea).

 

Once he was in the game, I don't think Yost could have brought in anyone else any earlier. There was no reason to have someone up in the pen until the game was tied. And he pulled him after the next batter.

 

I agree, in this situation, Yost carries some of the blame. Although, he is one of many on our team who carries the blame (Braun, Fielder, Hall, and Hart 0-for the game get honorable mention as well, as does Gagne and Torres).

 

Gallardo and Hardy are the only people on the team who deserved better.

[datrain711]

Yost put in the ten million dollar closer in a save situation, and you guys are throwing Yost on the fire for this one. Really? I keep holding out hope that Brewer fans are better than that.

 

what if he had thrown someone else out there who would have blown it. Everyone would be yelling at Yost for not using the closer in the save situation. I just don't understand how thinking people can blame the manager on this one. Gagne said he was ready to go, Yost put him in a save situation, and we lost.

[Fatter than Joey]

I just don't understand how thinking people can blame the manager on this one.

 

Because you use flawed statements like this...

 

Everyone would be yelling at Yost for not using the closer in the save situation.

 

This is 100% inaccurate -- there were all sorts of people that did not want to see Gagne today.

 

If you want to argue that Yost made the right call to bring Gagne in, that is 100% reasonable, but please do not use such lazy and irresponsible arguments that "Everyone at BF.net would be yelling at Yost for not bringing in the closer." When if you read through the IGT and were in the chat -- there were a substantial amount of people wanting to see a different reliever used.

[datrain711]

i'll agree my comment about thinking people was worded incorrectly. i apologize for the wording because I shouldn't have been so blunt about it

 

what i meant to say more concerns the piling on of Yost-bashers. I don't understand how anyone could think that this could have played out differently. It is standard protocol that the closer comes in for that situation. And being that this was the first time Gagne was pitching this many days in a row, Yost didn't have anything else to go on besides his word that he was ready to go that day.

 

I guess I just can't see how under the circumstances, Yost should have done anything else.

 

And I do believe that if he had gone to someone other than Gagne he would have been roasted.

[Fatter than Joey]

i apologize for the wording because I shouldn't have been so blunt about it

 

It's not so much the bluntness -- rather grouping everyone into one big pot.

 

And I do believe that if he had gone to someone other than Gagne he would have been roasted.

 

Sure. There were definitely people that wanted to see Gagne, just like there were people that didn't want to see Gagne. In a lot of strategy decisions, Ned is going to go against one group of people that see things differently -- that's Ned's cross to bear -- I think we all understand it. In all fairness though, the "Ned bashers" focus on specific things (generally).

 

For example, I thought Ned was nuts for bringing in Gagne, and had he brought in Torres and Torres got lit up, I would have been disappointed that the Brewers lost, but I wouldn't have scorched Ned for it.

[datrain711]

For example, I thought Ned was nuts for bringing in Gagne, and had he brought in Torres and Torres got lit up, I would have been disappointed that the Brewers lost, but I wouldn't have scorched Ned for it.

 

I have been a long time lurker here and have read many of your posts, so i respect what you say about this and I believe that you could approach it this way. However, I think that almost everyone else would have roasted Yost no matter who it was that lost us the game. I just think that with Ned, its starting to become lose-lose with every decision. Maybe that is just indicative of the current culture of baseball fandom, with message boards and comprehensive stats at our fingertips.

 

I don't believe Ned Yost is the second coming of Tony La Russa. I just also think that in a town that is starving for October playoffs, he's getting second guessed at every turn.

 

Oh well, I guess the good thing about all of this is that we are still 11-7 http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[strawbossisevil]

Oh well, I guess the good thing about all of this is that we are still 11-7 http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

But if we had someone other than Yost we'd be 18-0. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif Shame on you for settling for anything less http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif.

 

[datrain711]

Oh well, I guess the good thing about all of this is that we are still 11-7 http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

But if we had someone other than Yost we'd be 18-0. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif Shame on you for settling for anything less http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif.

 

 

I'm going to start my hire tony la russa campaign for 2009 so we can have the division wrapped up by June 15th.

[Mike2k33]

Yost put in the ten million dollar closer in a save situation, and you guys are throwing Yost on the fire for this one. Really? I keep holding out hope that Brewer fans are better than that.

 

What difference does it make that Gagne makes $10 million for one year? How would it be any different if he only made $5 million? I guess I just don't see how him making eight figures makes the situation any different. Gagne shouldn't have been used 4 days in a row. I don't care what Gagne says he feels like, it's the managers job to see through that crap.

 

I mean, all off season we heard about the new bullpen and how many guys could finish games if need be. Well, why not try it out when Gagne has pitched 3 days in a row in April?

 

I'm not a Yost basher, I think he gets a lot of undue crap on this board, but not for his actions yesterday. He, not Gagne, gets the blame from me.

[datrain711]

Yost put in the ten million dollar closer in a save situation, and you guys are throwing Yost on the fire for this one. Really? I keep holding out hope that Brewer fans are better than that.

What difference does it make that Gagne makes $10 million for one year? How would it be any different if he only made $5 million? I guess I just don't see how him making eight figures makes the situation any different. Gagne shouldn't have been used 4 days in a row. I don't care what Gagne says he feels like, it's the managers job to see through that crap.

 

I mean, all off season we heard about the new bullpen and how many guys could finish games if need be. Well, why not try it out when Gagne has pitched 3 days in a row in April?

 

I'm not a Yost basher, I think he gets a lot of undue crap on this board, but not for his actions yesterday. He, not Gagne, gets the blame from me.

 

Yost asked Gagne if he could go. He has yet to show he could not handle the workload of 4 days of closing games. he is our closer. He was put in during a situation where closers are always put in. Yet Yost gets bashed.

 

I mean, what is the percentage of times a save situation presents itself (to begin an inning nonetheless) and a closer isn't used? Especially when Yost had no reason to believe he couldn't handle the job, other than that he had been used the past few days.

 

And also: we still don't even know IF he was worn down. Maybe he just gave up a few long fly balls that carried out of the park. but no its easier to bash Yost than consider it.

[Mike2k33]

I mean, what is the percentage of times a save situation presents itself (to begin an inning nonetheless) and a closer isn't used?

See: Papelbon, Jonathan

Papelbon doesn't get the chance to close out every game. The Red Sox seem to be fine with that, as does Papelbon. I don't see why the Brewers wouldn't/shouldn't do something similar with the options we have in the pen and with Gagne's injury history.

 

As for Yost "asking" Gagne if he can go, big deal. Yost asks all his pitchers if they feel good that day. It's still irresponsible, IMO, to throw him out there 4 days in a row. Add in the fact we have a 14 man pitching staff(which is unheard of) and to me it makes no sense to use Gagne yesterday.