Evaluating Dusty Baker

[ELCABALLO45]

Ok, Well I read alot of Cubs boards and also around here it seems like everyone hates the guy. I really can't decide if I like him or not so I thought I would ask a couple questions... (I know that he does not like to play young players and he runs pitchers into the ground)

 

 

1. Do you think Dusty is a good manager?

 

2. Do you think he ruined Mark Prior's and Kerry Wood's career?

 

3. Was he the reason why the 2003 Chicago Cubs didn't win the WS?

 

4. Would you take him over Ned Yost? (Im not Yost bashing)

 

 

(unambigufied thread title --1992)

[Milwaukees Beast]

First thing that popped into my mind when reading that was a Cubs fan is in need of a hug.

[orca1963]

Dusty's biggest mistake imo was allowing the players to become "elitists". The incident when a player called the booth during a game they were losing--Dusty defended the player when he should have told him to focus on playing the game. As much as I hate it, the Cubs fans are among baseballs most loyal and fanatic. They have been losers for a long-long time and yet they sell out and pay higher prices every year. They boo when the team is not doing well but also will stand and cheer that same team/player 10 seconds later when they do well. Many other fans put a player on a you-know-what list and they don't get a reprieve until they do extremley well for an awful long time. Dusty said something to the effect that if they were true Cub fans they would never boo and would always support the team. Even if you are one who doesn't believe that booing has any class for him to rip on one of the most loyal fan bases around was out of touch to say the least. Wait a minute...he ripped the Cub fans? Maybe I do like himhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

My point is if you allow the inmates to run the jail it will not work out well. No I would not take him over Yost.

[berniebrewer4life]

Ok, Well I read alot of Cubs boards and also around here it seems like everyone hates the guy. I really can't decide if I like him or not so I thought I would ask a couple questions... (I know that he does not like to play young players and he runs pitchers into the ground)

 

 

1. Do you think Dusty is a good manager?

 

2. Do you think he ruined Mark Prior's and Kerry Wood's career?

 

3. Was he the reason why the 2003 Chicago Cubs didn't win the WS?

 

4. Would you take him over Ned Yost? (Im not Yost bashing)

1. I think he's a decent manager yes. He can take mediocre teams and make em good, but i don't see him being the kind of coach who makes good teams great.

 

2. Mark Prior - yes, atleast as far as i can tell. Kerry Wood - no. From what i have heard, Wood's injuries are due to his mechanics. He refuses to change them even tho management has been trying to get him to change them for years now.

 

3. No, i don't think they would have been able to beat the Yankees even if they made it.

 

4. Honestly, i think it's a toss up, but if Ned wasn't here, we wouldn't have Mike Maddux. I think he is the difference maker between the two. So i'll stick with Ned.

 

[ELCABALLO45]

Im a brewer fan lol

[Sheets4theHOF]

1. No with young players. He's ok if you give him a veteran team.

2. Yes, Every start in 2003 it seemed like those guys would get near 120 pitches or more.

3. Hard to blame him for that meltdown in game 6. More a failure of players executing and the fact the Marlins were a very good team that year.

4. As much as I dislike Yost, no.

[cubfan1126]

1. Do you think Dusty is a good manager?

2. Do you think he ruined Mark Prior's and Kerry Wood's career?

3. Was he the reason why the 2003 Chicago Cubs didn't win the WS?

4. Would you take him over Ned Yost? (Im not Yost bashing)

1. As somebody else stated with a veteran team yes, but young players don't see the field enough, especially at the end ot the season when all is lost all the AAA callups sit on the bench. He is a terrible in-game manager. Example: Down 5 runs entering the 9th we had pushed a couple of runs across, pinch hit for the pitcher, and had the tieing run at the plate. Nobody is yet warming up in the pen.

 

2. I'm going to say no. Again as stated earlier, Wood has had a mechanics issue. In Prior's case, is 1 season of overuse going to cause problems 4 years later, because there certainly wasn't overuse in '04, '05, & '06.

 

3. Yes and no. First off there is no way to determine whether we would or would not have beaten the Yankees. (We did take 2 of 3 that season) As a manager he should have been out at the mound after the Alou explosion and gotten everybody settled down. But it was a team of veterans and they shouldn't have needed to be settled down.

 

4. I have no opinion of Yost so I'll abstain.

 

Overall, players love Baker so from that aspect, if he is your manager, good players may want to come to play for him. Fans hate him because he is a terrible in-game manager.

[naivin]

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

4. No.

[Tbadder]

The guy loves Corey Patterson--nuff said.

 

But seriously, he reminds me of a poor George Allen, they way he hates on young talent. Maybe that changes this year with his two young stud pitchers.

 

I think it's a reach to say any manager is the cause for a pitcher's long term disabilities, so I'm just not comfortable there.

 

I think he has to take some of the responsibility, but the players performance is the primary reason any team loses, so again I'm uncomfortable.

 

I think that was a great thought about Yost brings Maddux. I guess I really do like Yost better. Dusty's in-game decision making is even more questionable that Yost's.

[areacodes]

1. Do you think Dusty is a good manager?

 

2. Do you think he ruined Mark Prior's and Kerry Wood's career?

 

3. Was he the reason why the 2003 Chicago Cubs didn't win the WS?

 

4. Would you take him over Ned Yost? (Im not Yost bashing)

 

1. No I don't think Dusty is a good manager, if he is given a veteran team where he can plug the players in and go I think he can do a good job but if you want him to work with youngsters and get them in... he isn't your guy.

 

2. He definitely helped contribute to the demise of Prior and Wood with the amount of abuse their arms took at such a young age, with that said I think it really had to do with plain bad luck with those two.

 

3. No, there are a few main culprits to them losing in the NLCS. I'd put the blame (and I really shouldn't use blame because it was a really joyous moment in my life) first and foremost on Alex Gonzales for messing up the potential doubleplay. I see no point in blaming Bartman because I've said from the day it happened that there was no way that Alou was going to make that catch... no way at all. I'll have to admit I didn't have cable that year and I really didn't get to see too many baseball games on TV (Listened to Bob and Jim on the radio) so I really can't make a judgment on anything Dusty might have done in the season to specifically prevent the cubs from making the World Series. With that said, I could see Dusty taking some blame for not calming his team down after Alou had his hissyfit in LF and Gonzales messed up the DP... and who knows what he did to get them to relax for Game 7 but they had plenty of chances.

 

4. No, I wouldn't take Dusty over Yost... but then again I actually like Yost...

 

orca - If you like Dusty for ripping on Cubs fans then you would really love Lee Elia and his tirade. Priceless!

[adambr2]

1. No. I think the game has passed Dusty by.

2. Wood, no. I don't know that anything would have changed what happened to Wood. Prior, maybe. He rode Prior like a horse in '03 and Prior's arm was simply not ready for that kind of workload.

3. No. That was Steve Bartman's fault. (kidding).

4. No. And I'm not exactly Yost's biggest fan.

[Oldcity]

1. Do you think Dusty is a good manager?

 

2. Do you think he ruined Mark Prior's and Kerry Wood's career?

 

3. Was he the reason why the 2003 Chicago Cubs didn't win the WS?

 

4. Would you take him over Ned Yost? (Im not Yost bashing)

I'll play.

1. No. Not only is Corey Patterson holding back Jay Bruce, but he is hitting leadoff. He also says things like "Joey Votto, you should swing more."

2. Not sure we're qualified to say, but I'll go with probably for Prior.

3. No.

4. No.

 

[jazzytrav]

1. I think he's a terrible manager. As cubfan pointed out, he's not a good in-game manager. Perhaps he would be okay with a team of veterans, but unfortunately (fortunately for us), the Reds hired him for their young, up-and-coming team. I think that was probably the worst hiring they could have made.

2. I really have no idea, but my personal feeling on it is yes, he did ruin their careers. As others have mentioned, the game has just passed him by. They have innings-limits for a reason, and he ignored them...why? It's almost this tough guy thing that he has going. Tough guys don't take walks, they swing more. Tough guys throw 250 innings a year, even if you're 23 years old. Tough leadoff hitters are fast and play CF, regardless of how worthless they are at everything else baseball-related. Tough guys end up having shortened careers because idiots like Dusty Baker are their managers. Just my opinion.

3. Again, I would say yes. I'll echo the words from cubfan:

As a manager he should have been out at the mound after the Alou explosion and gotten everybody settled down.

I know it seems easy to say in hindsight, but everyone could see the entire defense was riled up. There was no reason he couldn't step out there and say a few words, or even just to give everyone a break to collect themselves.

4. While I disagree with Ned quite often, I actually kinda like him as a manager. And it's quite obvious from my post that I don't like Dusty. So no, I would not take him over Yost at any time or any situation.

[visitorsdugout]

Okay as a Reds fan I'll participate.

 

1. Yep. For about 2 seasons. Seems to turn teams around THEN they go south on him.

 

2. No. He got a bad rap, imo. This is endlessly discussed on RedsZone seeing as we have 2 young pitchers and a third in AAA, its a topic of hot debate for Reds fans. I'll forgive him anything else, like the stupid Patterson leading off thing, but high pitch counts for the young pitchers would have most of Cincy calling for his head.

 

3. You can't be serious? Dusty was the reason the Cubs didn't win it '03? Laughable. They're the Cubs. They just can't help it. Neither Dusty Baker, or Lou or barbecuing a goat is going to help them.

 

4. This question is more for the Brewer fans than me. Looks to me that Yost has done a solid job but you guys know that better than me.

 

As for the Dusty hates young guys junk, its not true. Some things just get told so much people start to believe it. Votto is the first baseman now, everyday. Dusty told Hatte in Chicago. I don't blame him for the early platoon because I actually thought Votto looked so bad in ST that he should have gone to Louisville to start. Bruce did end up in Louisville - he looked shaky in ST, too. As for Paterson, the only part of him that bothers me is him leading off. He's been a terrific CFer - something the Reds really needed with Junior and Dunn in the corners. I can't blame Patterson, who should be hitting 7th or 8th where he'd be a decent low end bat, because Dusty is dumb enough to bat him leadoff. Dusty's lineup construction kills me. Brandon Phillips cleanup? Adam Dunn 5th? Dunn gets no protection and his high OBP is largely wasted there. He has handled the bullpen adroitly so far, given what he's working with and has limited the Reds young pitchers pitch counts. A terrible offensive start for several players, and terrible defense have killed us so far. The pitching has been solid outside of a couple Fogg Starts and a rare bomb by Harang last time out.

 

All in all I still look for the Brewers and Cubs to fight for the top spot, the Cards to fall off their pace pretty soon, the Reds to push but probably too young in too many places yet. The Pirates and Astros after that.

[jazzytrav]

Nice to hear it from the perspective of someone that watches him everyday. Welcome aboard visitorsdugout http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

The pitching has been solid outside of a couple Fogg Starts and a rare bomb by Harang last time out.

 

Why does this never, ever happen against the Brewers? Harang is my least favorite pitcher ever. Dude could throw a left-handed one-hitter as long as it's against the Brewers.

[cubfan1126]

Don't get your panties in a knot about Harang. He was 4-0 at Wrigley before this past series. That was the one game I thought we would lose to the Reds. Albeit I knew nothing about Volquez - but I do now.

[Fatter than Joey]

1. I think he is decent

 

2. No

 

3. No

 

4. Yes

[Ennder]

1. No, not even with a veteran team.

2. Partially. It is the organizations fault but he most certainly did misuse them.

3. No, not directly at least. A different manager might have won that series though.

4. No. I don't think Yost is a very good manager but I think Baker is bottom 15%.

[TooLiveBrew]

In Prior's case, is 1 season of overuse going to cause problems 4 years later, because there certainly wasn't overuse in '04, '05, & '06.

 

Fwiw, Prior's delivery has long featured the dreaded Inverted W -

 

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_InvertedW_MarkPrior_002.jpg

 

 

But as mentioned, Dusty mis/overused them to boot.

[endaround]

Look at Prior's pitch counts that year. Its grotesque. The last 6 starts? 131,129,109, 124, 131. 133

 

Look at PAP from that year, save for the strange case of Livan, none of those pitchers who were far above everyone else (top 5 ) were ever the same though Vasquez may have turned it around after 3 poor seasons

 

http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=100458

[berniebrewer4life]

Look at PAP from that year, save for the strange case of Livan, none of those pitchers who were far above everyone else (top 5 ) were ever the same though Vasquez may have turned it around after 3 poor seasons

 

http://baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=100458

I could be wrong here(and knowing me, i probably am), but it seems Livan has always had high pitch counts(#1 in PAP from 05-07, and is #7 so far this year) and continues to put up decent numbers. The guy is amazing.

[logan82]

I don't think Livan is a high effort guy. Just a guess. Unless I am mistaken his fastball tops out in the mid 80's.

 

Isn't it thought that after 110 pitches a pitcher's risk of injury starts to rise exponentially?

[Ennder]

Livan never got hurt but his career hit a downward spiral at a young age which I think is basically the same thing. You don't always blow the arm out, some guys just slowly lose velocity and become less effective. Zambrano has been like that over the last few years.

[endaround]

Not sure how young Livan actually is though, which makes it more difficult. But he doesn't really follow the rules that seem to affect other pitchers.

 

EDIT: I wanted to mention if you check those 130 pitch games Prior had, its not like they were 2-1 games that the Cubs had to take to get in the playoffs. The first was an 8-0 Cubs blowout where the Cubs were up 6-0 after 6. The next an 8-4 win with the Cubs up 5-1 going into the 7th against the 2003 Brewers. The second to last was 4-0 games against the Pirates heading into the 7th.

[monty57]

Dusty doesn't seem to like to take any blame, which is one thing I think managers need to do to take the pressure off the players. My most notable example was when the Cubs were tanking (I believe it was '04), he put all of the blame on Sosa, turning all of Chicago against Sosa, but saving Dusty's job for a year. The big complaints I remember were "He refuses to bat anywhere but #3 in the order even though at this point he should bat 5th," and "He plays his radio too loud in the clubhouse, distracting the rest of the team." Dusty's last two seasons with the Cubs kind of reminded me of Ray Rhodes with the Packers or Jerry Royster with the Brewers. The players, not the manager, were controlling the team. Rhodes had too much class to whine to the media when he couldn't control his team. Dusty apparently did not.

 

My guess is that Dusty likes veterans because he feels they "know how to handle themselves." He doesn't seem to be one who can instill discipline when necessary. Now that I think of it, wasn't he the manager of the Giants during the whole Kent/Bonds fiasco?

 

I'd guess he'll do okay with the Reds as long as Griffey's there, as he's a good guy an enough of a legend that no one will get out of hand, kind of like the Michael Jordan effect on Dennis Rodman. it also doesn't seem that the Reds have any malcontents on their team, although I don't know enough about them to make that call.