Safarte, Eveland, Thatcher -- Latest: Thatcher to Minors

[DrWood]

thatcher could have pitched in the majors last year. But the team had Shouse and Stetter, and exactly how many left-handed sidearmed pitchers do you need? I'd say one, so the only thing lost was that Thatcher was considerably younger than Shouse.

[SoCalBrewfan]

I understand the minor league chances, but he had chances to establish himself in Milwaukee? He pitched 8 1/3 innings in 8 games.

 

I suppose you're trying to pick apart the phrase 'chances in the majors and AAA to establish himself as a reliable reliever.' I will cheerfully concede that I could have worded that more clearly...but I stand behind the point.

 

I'm not arguing that he had an extended major league shot, but that between the majors and the high minors, and even spring training, the team gave him ample opportunities to demonstrate that he could put things together. The team saw him up close for two years in AAA, after two years in AA, with the brief Milwaukee appearance plus spring training games, and obviously didn't like what it saw. It was clearly to everybody what Sarfate's weaknesses were. He had some success in his second season in AA, but overall he was walking five guys per nine innings in the minors...for the 2007 season, when the Brewers desperately needed relievers, his walk rate was almost 7 per 9 innings. While I rooted for the guy all along, there's no way I would claim that his '07 season indicated that he was ready to help a contending team in the bullpen. If that was because he was bored, or disillusioned, well, I gotta say that the mental game is important for baseball players...short relievers in particular.

 

Also what Crew07 said.

[JJHardy7]

If you were the GM JJ would you have done it at the time? I don't remember you posting anywhere that Sarfarte was a possible solution to our bullpen woes.

 

I've been a Sarfate fan for awhile and I'm trying not to use that bias. My point simply is it didn't make much sense to dump him for Ray King. I'm not saying he's going to be the world's best RP or anything of that nature. I'm saying he has an electric arm and who knows they may have been able to re-sign him. The Sounds pitching is pretty thin which means if the Brewers have a few injuries they'll have to make trades.

 

edit. if Nix and Nelson... 2 role players at AAA are the best you can do, the arguement you're making has many holes in it.

 

How does it have that many holes? I haven't said that Sarfate would win a Cy Young or be an all-star. My point is that it wasn't a forgone conclusion that Sarfate wouldn't have returned to the Brewers. He enjoyed his time in the organization.

 

I suppose you're trying to pick apart the phrase 'chances in the majors and AAA to establish himself as a reliable reliever.' I will cheerfully concede that I could have worded that more clearly...but I stand behind the point.

 

Thanks for clarifying. He has had chances in the minors.

[TheCrew07]

Nix wasn't drafted by the Crew, this is his second organization. Nelson who looked great at his first stint in AA is looking more and more like an organizational soldier every year. Simply put, you're proving yourself wrong. Most players do not resign with their original organization when their commitment is over... Nelson is a pretty rare example of this, and he's not a prospect anymore. If you've been stuck in the minor leagues of one team for 6 or 7 years, would you stay or would you move on?

 

You didn't really answer the question, if you wouldn't have brought up Sarfate either, what's to debate? If you would have then I would question your motives, you can't bring a pitcher with control issues into an already unsettled situtation, that's the very definition of setting someone up to fail. Almost everyone who followed the minor league side here at the site really liked his stuff and rooted for him, that's not really the issue. This issue is if he earned an extended call-up which pretty much everyone seems to agree that he didn't earn one based on his minor league performances... I know you'll defend your position until a topic is run into the ground, but I have no interest in debating whether or not Dennis earned a shot when it's clear that Balfour, Spurling, and Latin Cappy all out pitched him on the same team and earned their call-ups and failed. He would have failed as well, he wasn't ready at the time.

 

Sometimes a guy needs to hear the same things from a different voice or a change in organization for things to click for him. Sarfate was stale in the Brewer's organization, it looks to me like moving on was exactly what helped set him straight.

 

edit. Thanks for the clarification below Mass.

[Mass Haas]

Just a note about Brad Nelson -- he's never been free to test free agency or "choose" to re-sign with Milwaukee, as when he was outrighted off the 40-man in June 2006, he could not leave via free agency. He would have been free to leave last October, but the Brewers re-added him to their 40-man roster.

[JJHardy7]

You didn't really answer the question, if you wouldn't have brought up Sarfate either, what's to debate? If you would have then I would question your motives, you can't bring a pitcher with control issues into an already unsettled situtation, that's the very definition of setting someone up to fail.

 

Again I'm not saying he would be an all-star. My point is that it wasn't handled the best. He was claimed by the Astros and he's now on the Orioles. That tells me the Brewers may have been able to trade him instead of getting nothing in return and adding King for a few weeks. I don't like seeing pitchers walk that way that in my mind still have some potential. That is my entire point. We got something for Thatcher and we got something for Eveland, but Sarfate we got nothing yet he's been on to major league teams since. I would have rather traded him or kept him through the year in case we needed another pitcher and it would also give the Brewers a chance to re-sign him. Obviously if he got major league offers he wouldn't have come back, but the Brewers must not have thought there would be interest in him or they could have simply traded him a few months earlier.

 

I respect your opinion that you don't think Sarfate is very good, but please don't jump to conclusions on certain things. My point has been players can get bored if they're left in the minors too long and hopefully the Brewers make the right decisions and prevent guys like Sarfate from walking away with nothing in return. It just seems to me the majority of the board that posts about Sarfate hates the guy because his dad or step-dad posted here (I don't know if I ever read what he said). I don't think that's fair to Sarfate and he did enjoy the Milwaukee Brewers organization.

[Team Canada]

It just seems to me the majority of the board that posts about Sarfate hates the guy because his dad or step-dad posted here (I don't know if I ever read what he said).

 

Huh? I don't think anybody hates Sarfate, and those that have a lower opinion of his ability do so because of his inability to throw a strike, not the fact that a family member happened to post here.

 

[JJHardy7]

I'm referring to comments like this:

 

I got the feeling reading his father's (step father?) comments here on the site that the family wasn't too thrilled with the Brewers.

 

I wouldn't put too much weight or thought on that. Like I've said before Sarfate enjoyed the Brewers organization. I think it is possible that whatever comments were made by his father or step-father get linked as to that's how Sarfate thought about things.

[DrWood]

Just a note about Brad Nelson -- he's never been free to test free agency or "choose" to re-sign with Milwaukee, as when he was outrighted off the 40-man in June 2006, he could not leave via free agency. He would have been free to leave last October, but the Brewers re-added him to their 40-man roster.

 

which suggests the brewers still think he is a "prospect", and last time I looked he was doing well this season.

[TheCrew07]

It just seems to me the majority of the board that posts about Sarfate hates the guy because his dad or step-dad posted here (I don't know if I ever read what he said). I don't think that's fair to Sarfate and he did enjoy the Milwaukee Brewers organization.

What? Saying someone didn't earn a call up and I don't like someone are 2 totally different things? Why wouldn't I like and root for every minor league player in the system? I didn't like the Ned Yost Jr signing at all, but I still rooted for the guy to succeed. The guy had electric stuff which he didn't locate for strikes, I'm not sure anyone would dispute that.

 

That tells me the Brewers may have been able to trade him instead of getting nothing in return and adding King for a few weeks

How do you know they didn't? I'm no fan of the King transaction either, but who would trade for someone that they could just pick up on the waiver wire or via free agency in a couple of weeks? There are some bad GMs out there, but who would trade for AAA reliever with control problems about to go free agency?

 

You're all over the place, first you said.

I tend to think it's just the fact that guys are in the minors too long and are "bored". I think it's a big rush going from the minors to the bigs before a September call up

I pointed out Dennis hadn't earned a call up. Then you said...

It's not that Sarfate wasn't called up in 2007 it's that the Brewers essentially gave him away by removing him from the 40 man for a few innings of Ray King

Then we pointed out he was he a minor league free agent. The part about his dad or step dad was just my observation of his father's comments, which you're way too hung up on, and are rather meaningless to the discussion. In fact I wish I wouldn't have brought that up at all. You then said.

 

I agree with you Brian, but the thing that gets me about 2007 is letting Thatcher and Sarfate go (in a trade and one released) in a year where the bullpen was really worn down.

To which many people responded that Sarfate wasn't going to help the bullpen last year and was going to be a minor league free agent following the season. Then you went to...

I understand the minor league chances, but he had chances to establish himself in Milwaukee? He pitched 8 1/3 innings in 8 games. If that's how much it takes to show yourself, then Prince Fielder is awful since he's struggled a bit in 2008.

Again it was pointed out that Dennis had done nothing to earn another call-up. You're next tidbit was...

My point simply is it didn't make much sense to dump him for Ray King. I'm not saying he's going to be the world's best RP or anything of that nature. I'm saying he has an electric arm and who knows they may have been able to re-sign him

At this point it appears that you are disregarding the fact that Sarfate was pitching worse at AAA than the relievers Melvin was tryin to replace at MLB. They needed a roster spot, Sarfate was going to be a free agent anyway, that was the common sense move. He was out of options which made him the odd man out. On paper it doesn't look logical because it looks like it was a straight up swap for King. However when you frame it in the correct context the move makes perfect sense, even though I was irritated with the King aquisition at the time. If Melvin was going to make an aquisition, he pretty much had to do what he did. It could be argued he didn't have to aquire King, which I would agree with, but Dennis would have left the organization regardless in my opinion.

 

Sarfate is a Melvin kind of guy, a hard thrower with good stuff who's had location issues (Turnbow, Kolb, Aquino, Balfour, Capellan)... This is why I believe that the organization pretty much knew he wasn't coming back. Why add another power arm when you have one sitting at AAA?

[JJHardy7]

I think you're missing my point. The thread started with some guys that we've lost/traded and my point is that over time a guy like say Sarfate could possibly get "bored" in the minors and that could lead to a production drop off. A call up to the bigs can maybe ignite a player. I think you can also throw Mike Rivera into that category if you look at his numbers from last year. Sarfate's production in the minors in 2007 may not be a true indication of his skill level. The fact that you're throwing names around in comparison to him that had better stats is why I believe my opinion is somewhat valid and possible.

 

And my entire other point is that the Sarfate situation wasn't handled the best. This does happen in organizations from time to time, but the fact that Sarfate was claimed by Houston and then traded in the off-season in a multi player deal tells me he does have some trade value. Did they possibly try and trade him? Sure, but I haven't heard anything about that so that would be pure speculation on my part. I don't understand why they chose to let Sarfate off the 40-man at the time they wanted King when there were some guys on it who in my mind had no business being on the 40-man (Drew Anderson). That's just my opinion in a nutshell and I hope it makes some sense or is a little more clear.

 

For the record, I think Sarfate could've helped the bullpen down the stretch even if it was in a mop up role. I think one major positive thing about the Brewers this year is that they have guys that can pitch multiple innings and Sarfate could do that.

[endaround]

Except Sarfate couldn't do that because like McClung you never now when he walk everyone.

[JJHardy7]

Except Sarfate couldn't do that because like McClung you never now when he walk everyone.

 

I agree. Sarfate isn't perfect, but in my mind he's a better option for the most part than what we currently have in Nashville. He's be roughed up in Baltimore his past few appearances because of his control issues. He still had more value than simply letting him go in my mind, but that's just my opinion.

[TheCrew07]

Actually JJ, I understand where you are coming from entirely, I always have. I tried to illustrate to you that you basically talked yourself in a circle and disregarded the statistical and historical evidence when it came to Sarfate. You don't have to agree with me or anyone else, it's all just conjecture at this point anyway.

[Gopher74]

I'm not arguing that he had an extended major league shot, but that between the majors and the high minors, and even spring training, the team gave him ample opportunities to demonstrate that he could put things together. The team saw him up close for two years in AAA, after two years in AA, with the brief Milwaukee appearance plus spring training games, and obviously didn't like what it saw.

 

See, I understand all of this, but when the Brewers then go and keep a guy like Seth McClung on their big league roster when he's done all of the same things...struggled with the same issues year after year, it just doesn't make sense to me why they'd give up on such an incredibly talented young reliever when their biggest organizational weakness may be developing relief pitchers.

 

The guy has am arm that may be better than McClung or Turnbow's.

 

Yea, you keep a guy like Anderson on the 40 man, but you let a guy who throws 100 MPH with some nasty movement go without getting anything in return?

 

Also, it was mentioned in here that he was a lefty I believe. Of course this probably just went un-noticed, or was mis-spoken, but he clearly is not. If he were, I can promise that he'd have been given more chances.

 

Again, such a great arm, and with the Brewers obvious willingness to stick with pitchers with great stuff, but control issues, it just doesn't make sense that they'd let him go.

 

But, oh well. Time marches on, and they've done so much more right than wrong.

[Mass Haas]

Joe Thatcher gave up a 3-2 7th inning lead for the Padres Saturday night, his game log indicates it's been a rough April...

[JJHardy7]

You don't have to agree with me or anyone else, it's all just conjecture at this point anyway.

 

I was just trying to respond to other various points that others were making. If statistical and historical evidence told the facts, Steve Bray would be on the 40-man and would have gotten called up last year. There are 4A players and future major leaguers and Nashville had a bunch of 4Aers at least in the Brewers mind when it came to pitching last year. Great stats, but no call-up for some of those guys. That tells me it's not all about stats -- see Seth McClung.

[Never Outhustled]

That tells me it's not all about stats -- see Seth McClung.

McClungs AAA stats were phenomenal last year.

 

Also to add to this thread, Joe Thatcher was hammered again last night, pushing his season ERA over 10 and his career ERA over 4, and Sarfate's ERA is still over 6. Maybe we should give the Brewers credit for knowing which pitchers to part ways with.

[JJHardy7]

McClungs AAA stats were phenomenal last year.

 

I don't know if you were agreeing with me, but yes McClung's stats in AAA were very good. The Brewers also had some guys with really good pitching AAA stats that never made it to the show in '07 or are no longer in the organization.

[battlekow]

John Sickels posted an article about Eveland today; I made a thread about it on the Major League board.

[danzig6767]

Safarte has never been able to throw enough strikes to match his golden arm and is why i'd bet his major league career will end up being a fairly short one.

 

The guy walked 78 batters in 125 innings and 47 batters in 61 innings during his two years in AAA. Yet, we have people wondering why the Brewers didn't call him up?

 

The last two years, the Brewers were trying to secure a playoff berth, it wasn't the dark days where the goal was to hopefully win 75 games and it was worth giving any younger pitcher with a great arm a shot.

 

As for this Safarte was to bored to throw strikes crap, gimme a break. Dennis was playing professional baseball, not little league where everyone has to play. The Brewers didn't have Safarte still in A ball, he spent two years in AAA for us, that's one stop away from the bigs.

 

With his great arm, if Safarte had went to AAA and got hitters out, the Brewers would have been thrilled to call him up. If you're actually right that he was to bored to do his job well and earn a berth in the bigs, i'm not sure if that's pure speculation, but if it's true, then Safarte obviously wasn't professional enough to deserve a shot in the big leagues. No baseball player is entitled to a job in the majors regardless if they posses a great skill, it has to be earned. Whether Safarte was so unprofessional that he got bored and it lead to his ugly AAA stats or he simply was following his career pattern of being unable to throw strikes, the end result was the same, a 25/26 year old guy with ugly WHIP's of 1.62 and 1.75 in AAA. He gave the Brewers absolutely zero reason to pitch on the major league roster given he couldn't get minor league hitters out, so they eventually cut ties with him since he was about to become a minor league free agent.

 

Melvin isn't a moron, before just flat out waiving Safarte, i highly doubt that he did so without first assessing if he had any trade value.

[JJHardy7]

Melvin isn't a moron, before just flat out waiving Safarte, i highly doubt that he did so without first assessing if he had any trade value.

 

He couldn't have been traded when they released him. It was past the deadline. As far as the bored thing, I really think you're taking it a bit too far. It's not directly pointed at Sarfate, but others who have been mentioned in this thread. Look at Mike Rivera's AAA stats last year. Not all that impressive. There comes a point and time for some players after being in the minors for years that you begin to wonder if you'll have a shot.

 

As far as referring to Melvin as a moron, I didn't make that reference at all. Melvin can make mistakes like any other general manager can and he's shown that he can make them in the past. I just don't think the situation was handled the best. I still believe Sarfate had trade value. The fact that he's been on 2 major league teams since points to that face in my opinion.

[Mass Haas]

Another awesome outing for Dana Eveland Monday night, he looks so darn comfortable on the mound.

 

How much fun is this Oakland staff with lefties Greg Smith and Eveland back-to-back?

 

Where was this comfort zone with us, Dana?

 

Not a big fan of the chewing tobacco, but congrats, kid.

[LouisEly]

In his last five appearances, Thatcher has pitched 6.1 innings giving up 5 hits, 1 BB, and one run. In his last seven appearances, Sarfate has pitched 7 innings giving up 5 hits (but walking 5) and has only given up one earned run. Both appear to have settled down for the time being. Sarfate's walks are concerning, but I'd rather have a guy give up walks than hits. Walks don't hurt you when you don't give up hits; it's when you give up walks then hits - that's when you get in trouble.

[Mass Haas]

The Padres have optioned Joe Thatcher to AAA...

 

This article from last week discussed Joe's troubles.