Ned Yost/Mr. Coffee for Tenderloin for Prince/Pair of eyes for Braun

[sheetswannabe]

Ok, Obviously this isnt a real trade... (Too bad)

 

But what do you think will hurt more to this team right now, Yosts poor management of the bullpen?

 

Prince trying to hit one out every at bat, and failing horribly?

 

Or Braun not taking any pitches, and making pitchers pitch counts remain low?

 

Edit: Took out transaction symbol because it's not a transaction. - Toby

[strawbossisevil]

Its early in the case of Braun and Fielder. I imagine they'll figure things out.

 

Ned has done well most of the year with the bullpen. Certainly arguments could be made about a game or two, but that's true with any manager. I really don't think he's been a liability to this point.

[BrewCrewForever]

Its early I'm not worried at all about Braun or Fielder. As for Yost, I really have no complaints about him at all so far this year. Were 8-4 and have won both of our road series thus far. I feel great about that.

[naivin]

But what do you think will hurt more to this team right now, Yosts poor management of the bullpen?

Exactly what is this poor management of which you speak?

[RJay715]

Let's see: The Brewers are 8-4, doing it with Braun, Weeks, and Fielder in slumps to start the season, and we're COMPLAINING?

Not to mention we haven't seen Cameron or Yo yet. I think Ned's doing just fine with a few exceptions, but like others have said, that's with any manager. Nothing but optimism from this guy.

 

[sheetswannabe]

Exactly what is this poor management of which you speak?

 

Umm, leaving Mota in too long today, (He got lucky)... Warming Turnbow with runners on.... Leaving starters in too long (Bush)...

 

Have you watched any games?

[1992casey]

Have you watched any games?

 

Don't go that route. It's condescending and adds nothing to make your point.

[Sheets4theHOF]

Braun semi worries me. Every AB seem to go like this:

 

First pitch: down the middle--taking all the way

Second pitch: low and out side--swing and miss 0-2

 

Ryan's approach isn't putting him in a position to succeed.

 

I think Yost hasn't been awful (this year) with managing his pitchers, but he certainly makes his share of mistakes.

 

Only Shouse and Gagne pitched yesterday and there's an off day tomorrow. Suppan clearly is struggling with no end in sight. What do you do?

 

Hint: the answer is not leave Suppan in till he gives up 6 runs.

 

Also, if the brewers are into the 6th inning and Bush show just a hint of trouble, yost better pull him. To watch Bush all year last year and still make that mistake is frustrating to say the least.

[Glennron]

I'll say Ryan Braun. I mean I know it's 12 games, but 53 consecutive plate appearances without a walk? That seems pretty hard to do. Obviously no one was expecting him to walk a ton but it'd be nice if he could get one every 2-3 games.

[whynotthebrewers]

Exactly what is this poor management of which you speak?

 

Umm, leaving Mota in too long today, (He got lucky)... Warming Turnbow with runners on.... Leaving starters in too long (Bush)...

 

Have you watched any games?

Yes we all have watched the games. You hate Yost and need to speak it over and over, like many others. We have already talked about this at length. Yost is lucky when it works and we get Yosted all the others. But if we switched pitchers every time there is a jam, the bullpen would be spent by june. I hear this in bars and at the games, and I really believe people with this view don't think about the future and simply have their views set and just want to get upset. Enjoy the game one day and forget about hating Yost and getting angry. The game can be fun to watch and the brewers even lose some games.

[naivin]

Umm, leaving Mota in too long today, (He got lucky)... Warming Turnbow with runners on.... Leaving starters in too long (Bush)...

I see, so he's actually asking the guys on the roster to do their jobs. I guess that qualifies for poor management. There's 9 innings in every game, and somebody has to pitch them. Under your guidelines, who is gonna do that? When he starts pulling guys any time they get in trouble, are you gonna blame Ned for wearing out the bullpen too? Of course you will.

He got lucky. That's a good one. Have you ever said, Ned was unlucky?

Let's look at yesterday for example, and "leaving Mota in too long." Torres and Shouse had already worked. Gagne was obviously slotted for the 9th. There were runners on, so that eliminates Turnbow in your world (you should probably be giving Ned credit for not bringing him in), that leaves McClung and Riske. Do you want McClung brought in in that situations? So that actually leaves Riske. For whatever reason, Ned liked Mota in that situation better than Riske. Could it be because Riske worked 2 innings on Friday and his record with 1 day of rest vs. 0 or 2 is terrible? Could it be because over the course of his career, nearly half of Riske's inhereited runners come around to score? I don't know, but the fact is, had he gone with Riske or McClung and they gave it up, you'd criticize that as well.

BTW, there is the pesky little detail of the fact that Mota got the 3 outs. The Ned blinders have gotten so unreasonable that even when he makes a correct decision that works out, people feel entitled to criticize without presenting an alternative.

[Fatter than Joey]

If I have to chose one -- I think Braun has to make some adjustments.... but I am confident that he will work things out. Prince is going to get his HRs. I am sure a lot of pitchers have spent the off-season looking for holes in Braun's swing -- and Ryan will just have to counter what pitchers are doing to him.

 

If there is one thing that legitimately concerns me it is the team defense. They do not look very tight so far.

 

Yes we all have watched the games. You hate Yost and need to speak it over and over, like many others......

 

I really don't want to be the sort of guy that complains about posters, but if we are truly trying to "keep Brewerfan clean", how do posts like this not get deleted?

 

The initial post gave three options to pick from (Braun/Prince/Yost) -- inevitably someone is going to pick Yost and then posters like the above chime in with the same tired post telling people to watch the game and "enjoy themselves" adding nothing to the discussion.

 

I also realize (as I am sure almost all here do) it is early in the season, but why can't we have a little fun talking about Prince's 0HRs and/or Brauns 0BBs?

[naivin]

The initial post gave three options to pick from (Braun/Prince/Yost) -- inevitably someone is going to pick Yost and then posters like the above chime in with the same tired post telling people to watch the game and "enjoy themselves" adding nothing to the discussion.

 

I don't necessarily care about the watch the game and enjoy yourself stuff, that's a seperate issue, but what's wrong with a poster questioning the validity of one of the three options, which is in effect what the post you cited was doing (I did it as well in a different post). Prince has no HRs. Braun has not been hitting. Those are facts. The original posters (misinformed in my opinion) opinion that Ned manages the bullpen poorly, is not. That opinion was presented as every bit the fact that the other two are by someone who clearly doesn't like Ned Yost. Not sure why questioning that is not adding to the discussion, or why it should be considered grounds for deleting a post.

[strawbossisevil]

Yes, its fun to revel in and get worked up about statistical anomalies that won't likely make any difference over the course of a whole season. Yipee! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

I personally think the discussion is tired on both sides, since both sides have made their points ad nauseum to the point of it being ridiculous. Both the Yost detractors and the Yost defenders rarely add anything to the discussion. Often that includes your posts, and often that includes my posts. Maybe when bringing up him in the first place, its something we need to think through whether we really want to go "there" again.

[jason21nl]

It was extremely lucky that Mota go out of the inning. Even after he got the lucky double play, he still managed to load the bases and then went 2-1 on Delgado who got over anxious and got himself out. Mota had nothing that whole inning, the vent thread and the fire Yost threads would have gone wild, but Yost escaped and all the Yost haters have blinders on this morning. The people that don't like Yost always seem to have an opinion why they don't like him, yet the Yost supporters just call us haters and have no reason why they support the guy. Not everyone is like that, but the majority of Yost supporters are.

[strawbossisevil]

I've seen a number of posters who explained why it may not have been such a terrible move, considering Yost's other options. Riske (being tired from 2 innings on Friday), Turnbow (being terrible w/ runners on base), McClung (need I even elaborate?). I think this situation will be helped when we can add another solid arm in the pen (Bush) in place of McClung.

 

Yes, some have used the "hater" label too. But, just as you don't want to be lumped in a group, don't lump the Yost admirers into one group either. Some of us actually defend our opinion with logic.

[Fatter than Joey]

I did it as well in a different post

 

Right -- I could have easily picked your post as well.

 

The original posters (misinformed in my opinion) opinion that Ned manages the bullpen poorly, is not.

 

It's his opinion. Instead of jumping down his throat or calling his opinion "misinformed" -- then why not choose "Prince" or "Braun" if you think Yost has been masterful with his BP usage.

 

Not sure why questioning that is not adding to the discussion, or why it should be considered grounds for deleting a post.

 

Yes we all have watched the games. You hate Yost and need to speak it over and over, like many others. We have already talked about this at length. Yost is lucky when it works and we get Yosted all the others. But if we switched pitchers every time there is a jam, the bullpen would be spent by june. I hear this in bars and at the games, and I really believe people with this view don't think about the future and simply have their views set and just want to get upset. Enjoy the game one day and forget about hating Yost and getting angry. The game can be fun to watch and the brewers even lose some games.

 

I am beginning to think this guy just cuts and pastes the same thing every time he posts. The initial post presents 3 choices -- If you think Yost has done well then don't chose him. I chose Braun because I sincerely believe that Yost's "mismanagement" of the BP is not the biggest concern the Brewers have at this point in the season.

 

Both the Yost detractors and the Yost defenders rarely add anything to the discussion.

 

I don't think that this is true at all. There are plenty of people that I do not agree with when it comes to Yost, but value their overall opinion. I have been one of the first anti-Yost guys on this board, but I can honestly say that I never thought that the pro-Yost people didn't contribute anything to discussions.

 

Some of us actually defend our opinion with logic.

 

Absolutely -- the above quote though contains more scolding than logic. If you can find any logic/reasonings in the above post, I would like to see it.

[naivin]

If you can find any logic/reasonings in the above post, I would like to see it.

We have already talked about this at length. Yost is lucky when it works and we get Yosted all the others. But if we switched pitchers every time there is a jam, the bullpen would be spent by june.

 

What's the problem?

 

 

I would suggest that what you (and many others) really want is the ability to state your opinions on Yost as fact without having to defend them. Again, what is wrong with questioning an opinion somebody states, or do we need to limit our responses to things like the original post to one word answers? Isn't that sort of what these boards are for? Personally, I am very interested to hear sheetswannabe response to my breakdown of yesterday's game/bullpen usage - exactly what alternative he would liked to have seen. Is that sort of discussion worthy of this board?

[strawbossisevil]

I wasn't claiming that there was logic in that post. I was contending with jason's lumping the majority of Yost supporters as those who "have no reason why they support the guy". I would contend that there are very few who don't have some logic in their defense of Yost.

 

Some may believe that his flaws are overemphasized, is that a logical argument? Clearly it could be. Some may point to the fact that if you compare him to other managers, he really isn't all that different, and that he indeed has his positive points as well. Logical? Yep. Some may use the circumstance during the game to point out why Ned may be handcuffed at certain points in a game (be it with the bench, the bullpen etc.), these are logical too. Some may argue that certain moves may seem right in the short term, but might cripple you over the course of a season. Once again, very logical.

 

My point is, the Ned supporters who don't use some sort of logical argument to support him are very few and far between, although many people who dislike him as manager seem to center only on the worst of the Ned supporters (as I imagine many of us Ned supporters center our attention on the worst of the Ned haters). There is logic being used on both sides of the argument. Often times it just comes down to being respectful of others and recognizing that many may view the game situations with a different perspective. That doesn't mean they don't use logic, its just a different logic than you'd use in the same situation. Does that make sense?

[Fatter than Joey]

What's the problem?

 

That is neither logic nor reasoning -- rather an inaccurate generalization.

 

I would suggest that what you (and many others) really want is the ability to state your opinions on Yost as fact without having to defend them.

 

False, now you just made an inaccurate generalization. I certainly have no problem defending my positions. I thought this off-season that Yost left his SP in way too long -- I wrote this -- People took me to task on it on this board and my blog -- I was happy to have the feedback.

 

Personally, I am very interested to hear sheetswannabe response to my breakdown of yesterday's game/bullpen usage - exactly what alternative he would liked to have seen. Is that sort of discussion worthy of this board?

 

Of this board, sure, -- this thread -- no. I don't think that a breakdown of yesterday's BP usage serves any more purpose than breaking down each AB by Prince and/or Braun. I chose Braun, made comments, and then further stated that I don't think Yost's management of the BP is the biggest concern.

 

I don't see why you could have chosen Prince/Braun and then commented something to the effect "I think Yost has done well with the BP" rather than a rant about "Yost Blinders"

[Fatter than Joey]

I would contend that there are very few who don't have some logic in their defense of Yost.

 

Fair enough.

 

I realize that we all get very subjective about the Brewers -- as I pointed out in my post above -- I tried to add a little depth to my Yost hate by backing it up with some research. I have no problem with people poking at my "research/conclusions" -- I am tired of being told to "enjoy the game" or "obviously you have never played the game before".

 

If someone started a "Ned Yost Appreciation thread" -- I wouldn't pee on their parade.

 

As a side note: I think Yost is making the exact same mistakes he did with Bush as he did last year.

[naivin]

I don't see why you could have chosen Prince/Braun and then commented something to the effect "I think Yost has done well with the BP" rather than a rant about "Yost Blinders"

Well, I actually didn't rant about "Yost Blinders" (what was that you were saying about inaccurate generalizations?). I asked for some clarification as to...Exactly what is this poor management of which you speak? Is that a rant? The response I got was something to the effect of keeping Mota in too long, etc. I then answered that with specific examples from yesterday - yes, in an attempt to demonstrate that criticism was driven almost entirely by a dislike of Ned Yost. Does it belong in this thread? Maybe not. But then again, when the entire premise of the original post is based 1/3 on an opinion that I happen to think is invalid and based on personall opinion of the manager, perhaps it does.

 

Heck, who knows...had the original poster been able to provide a legitimate explanation to what he meant by poor managemen, maybe I would have chosen that option.

[naivin]

I am tired of being told... "obviously you have never played the game before".

On this we agree. Boy do I hate that. I have never cut my hair with a cheese grater either, but I know enough about it to know it would not be a good idea.

[Fatter than Joey]

The response I got was something to the effect of keeping Mota in too long, etc. I then answered that with specific examples from yesterday

 

I understood the original post to speak to the overall efforts by Yost/Braun/Prince up to this point this year, and not their specific performances yesterday.

 

On this we agree. Boy do I hate that. I have never cut my hair with a cheese grater either, but I know enough about it to know it would not be a good idea.

 

Well -- I think this is a good point to exit from this thread -- I appreciate the analogy http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[MarquetteBrewFan]

BTW, there is the pesky little detail of the fact that Mota got the 3 outs. The Ned blinders have gotten so unreasonable that even when he makes a correct decision that works out, people feel entitled to criticize without presenting an alternative.

I am just wondering why Gagne could not be used there. First I am not a Ned basher. Second, I am not one of the people obsessed with Gagne because of his contract and lose sleep over him every night, I could care less if we was paid 100 million dollars as long as its a one year contract; its not my money and it doesnt impact the future of the franchise.

With that said, I am not criticizing the decision to leave Mota in. But I hate the fact that there is this thinking written in stone that your 'closer' can only be used for three innings to start the 9th. I say with the bases loaded, two outs, game on the line, your pitcher just walked two guys in a row, why the heck not bring in your 'closer' to do his job. Get the last out of the inning and then close out the 9th.

The brewers pitching was so over the place in that game, everyone who pitched until Gagne came in the 9th was all over the place walking everyone. Besides the first game of the year control has not been an issue for Gagne and I would argue he has been dominant (minus one pitch).

This is directed more at MLB and not at Ned.