Should Bush be sent down to AAA? (Merged: Bush's last chance?)

[JJHardy7]

I want to start this off by saying I'm not saying this will happen or should happen and I know Bush has an option left, but he would still have to clear waivers. This is assuming that he does clear waivers and as we know a roster move will need to be made when Yo is back.

 

I know a lot of people want to move Bush into the long relief role and DFA McClung. I'm not against this by any means, but looking beyond this year it appears that Bush might be the odd pitcher out. I know Sheets might be gone next year and we'd need another starting pitcher, but I think going from Sheets to Bush is a drastic drop off in the rotation and I don't think that would be a good idea.

 

My main point in trying to get Bush down is that hopefully he will "figure it out". I know there are still some who are high on Bush or hope he can be a #3 or #4, but I really don't see that happening for him anymore and a change of scenery might help that out. I think in AAA he could hopefully come down and make some very solid starts and get some confidence back. If he were claimed by a team, I'd wish him the best and hopefully that new scenery would help him out. I know this would leave the Brewers short-handed in the case of an injury and that's a very valid point. I just don't know if Bush would spend most of the year in the bullpen that he would have much value as a starter next year.

[Brewer Fever]

No.

 

Bush should be given a shot in the bullpen where he belongs. He's a two-pitch pitcher who has shown great control throughout his career. Good control with only two pitches, with one of those pitches being an average fastball does not bode well for trying to go through a lineup multiple times. But great control and 2 pitches can add up to a very effective career as a reliever who sees a batter once an appearance.

[kramnoj]

I believe Bush would go through revocable waivers, so the Brewers wouldn't lose him if they didn't want to. They could pull him back if he was claimed and go with whatever their plan B would be.

 

There is an interesting balance between now and the future. If Bush's best role for this team is long relief, that's fine. But if that is his best role for this team in the future, there is no reason to bring him back next year, he would be too expensive for the role.

[rluzinski]

If Bush is hurt, he should be put on the DL (he continues to throw an 86 MPH fastball and seems to have lose control). If he's healthy but continues to be ineffective as a starter, he should be moved into the long relief role, as McClung has no business being there anyway.

 

I don't think sending Bush down is an option, anyway. I could have sworn that I've already read on these boards about a dozen times that Bush can't be sent down without being exposed to waivers and it can't be rescinded if he doesn't clear. Do I remember wrong?

[Gobias Industries]

There is a very good chance Bush is gonna be heading to the DL. Something isn't right.

 

He's got a mini inverted W that Prior and Wood had: http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/RethinkingPitching/Essays/DeathToTheInvertedW.html

 

http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com/uploaded_images/DaveBush-798250.jpghttp://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_InvertedW_MarkPrior_002.jpg

[kramnoj]

From Cot's:

 

"Optional waivers. Optional major league waivers are required when optioning a player who has options remaining but who is more than three calendar years removed from his first appearance on a Major League roster. Because optional waivers are revocable, players usually clear in this scenario."

[rluzinski]

There is a very good chance Bush is gonna be heading to the DL. Something isn't right

 

"Very good chance" based on one guy's opinion? His own link makes it sound like it's currently being taught in the majors. It's just an unsubstantiated theory from a self-labeled internet expert. The guy is not a doctor, nor did he ever even pitch above grade school. Self taught? Ummm, yeh.

 

From Cot's:

"Optional waivers. Optional major league waivers are required when optioning a player who has options remaining but who is more than three calendar years removed from his first appearance on a Major League roster. Because optional waivers are revocable, players usually clear in this scenario."

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

[kramnoj]

I do wonder about the "usually clear" part. I assume this was true in a previous age of gentelmen's agreements, and I wonder if that is still the case. If the Cubs are behind the Brewers in the standings and they try to send Bush down, do we expect that the Cubs wouldn't claim him, just to block the move?

[JJHardy7]

I think part of the reason I think a trip to AAA could succeed for Bush (if he's not currently hurt) is that I have quite a bit of respect for Stan Kyles (the Sounds pitching coach). I know there is a lot of love for Mike Maddux, but I think at this point if Bush is healthy a long-term decision needs to be made. I think Kyle could really help Bush out and get him playing at a high level against lower competition which should boost Bush's confidence.

 

Kyle has had some pretty good current Brewers go through his system including Yovani Gallardo, Carlos Villanueva, and Manny Parra. This is just a thought if the Brewers want to keep him or try to keep him past this year.

[endaround]

Well they need him past this year. I know people like to pretend that the Brewers are suddenly going to find another arm thats #1 caliber for $5 m a year, but it isn't going to happen. You have Bush at $5 m or next years Suppan at $11 m for four years. Again, I doubt he can get optioned down because my guess is as soon as the Brewers try, Bush files a complaint and gets placed on the DL.

[Gobias Industries]

"Very good chance" based on one guy's opinion? His own link makes it sound like it's currently being taught in the majors. It's just an unsubstantiated theory from a self-labeled internet expert. The guy is not a doctor, nor did he ever even pitch above grade school. Self taught? Ummm, yeh.

Actually his 84 mph fastball and 62 mph curve make me believe something isn't right. I felt like I was watching Livan Hernandez pitch on Wednesday.

 

As for the self-labeled interent expert, I'm not afraid at looking at things a different way. Why should I believe the scouts who said that Mark Prior had the perfect pitching mechanics? I mean the guy only had the most damaged arm Dr. Andrews had ever seen.

 

The same exact thing you just said about this "different scout" were the same things people said about the Sabremetric guys up until a few years ago. Scouts that are going against conventional pitching wisdom are gonna be looked at as outsiders until they are proven right over and over again. Because someone hasn't played since grade school means absolutely nothing.

[pitchleague]

I know that I've always been worried about the way Bush releases the ball, either out of the wind up or the stretch. He holds the ball out away from his body and does a very subtle little flick of the wrist and pretty much shows the hitter, the bench, and anybody watching closely on television what pitch is coming. He doesn't hide it well at all in my opinion.

 

I realize that Prior has the same kind of motion (minus the little flick of the wrist) but has been more successful, I think, because (a) he hides the ball a bit better, and (b) he just has more "stuff" in his arm (although that's debatable, too, with his injury history--but let's not debate that, okay?).

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he's hurt and trying to pitch through it, but I'm not a doctor. So I'll just go on and hope that it's just the idea of his arm needs to be stretched out some more.

[kramnoj]

Well they need him past this year. I know people like to pretend that the Brewers are suddenly going to find another arm thats #1 caliber for $5 m a year, but it isn't going to happen. You have Bush at $5 m or next years Suppan at $11 m for four years. Again, I doubt he can get optioned down because my guess is as soon as the Brewers try, Bush files a complaint and gets placed on the DL.

 

If Bush has a #1 arm, why hasn't he been able to put together a full season showing that? I also don't understand your Suppan comment. He's here for two years after this one. If you're saying that the Brewers need to go get a FA to replace Bush, I don't see why that's true. They should be able to replace Bush's production with someone in their system or a leftovers like Kyle Lohse.

[Blazer25]

As for the self-labeled interent expert, I'm not afraid at looking at things a different way. Why should I believe the scouts who said that Mark Prior had the perfect pitching mechanics? I mean the guy only had the most damaged arm Dr. Andrews had ever seen.

Scouts never made that claim. Pitching "guru" Tom House did as Prior was one of his clients.

 

Regardless of who made the comment, guys with very good mechanics are still capable of breaking down. Pitching on a mound is one of the most unnatural acts a body can go through.

 

Not to mention, Prior was a college pitcher with a high workload and then brought to the majors the year he was drafted. Lots of things to factor in and you can't just point to mechanics as the cause.

[rluzinski]

Actually his 84 mph fastball and 62 mph curve make me believe something isn't right.

 

I'm not disagreeing that me might be hurt. Heck, I said as much earlier in this thread.

 

The same exact thing you just said about this "different scout" were the same things people said about the Sabremetric guys up until a few years ago. Scouts that are going against conventional pitching wisdom are gonna be looked at as outsiders until they are proven right over and over again. Because someone hasn't played since grade school means absolutely nothing.

 

I'm not skeptical just because he his opinion on the matter is in the minority. I'm skeptical because he has no formal training that would allow him to properly analyze the kinematics involved and the effects the resulting forces would even have on the joints. He's taught himself for 3 whole years!

 

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/WhoIAmAndHowIGotHere.html

 

When I read that, it sounds like a joke.

 

Could he be right? It's possible. Great work has come from the most unexpected places. I sure wouldn't assume it, though.

[Ennder]

As for the self-labeled interent expert, I'm not afraid at looking at things a different way. Why should I believe the scouts who said that Mark Prior had the perfect pitching mechanics? I mean the guy only had the most damaged arm Dr. Andrews had ever seen

 

He also said that the majority of pitchers in baseball wouldn't have been able to throw a ball and it was a testament to his mechanics that he was able to throw at all which is what caused the previous problems.

[endaround]

If Bush has a #1 arm, why hasn't he been able to put together a full season showing that?

I'm not saying Bush has a #1 arm, he is an average to slightly above pitcher who can give you around 200 innings if healthy. People act like Bush is Vargas, basically replacement level. He isn't.

[kramnoj]

I'm not saying Bush has a #1 arm, he is an average to slightly above pitcher who can give you around 200 innings if healthy. People act like Bush is Vargas, basically replacement level. He isn't.

Then what does "I know people like to pretend that the Brewers are suddenly going to find another arm thats #1 caliber for $5 m a year, but it isn't going to happen. You have Bush at $5 m or next years Suppan at $11 m for four years. " mean?

[Ennder]

Then what does "I know people like to pretend that the Brewers are suddenly going to find another arm thats #1 caliber for $5 m a year, but it isn't going to happen. You have Bush at $5 m or next years Suppan at $11 m for four years. " mean?

 

It means that we aren't going to find a #1 calibre arm for $5M a year so we are going to have to settle for someone like Bush or Suppan instead. Seemed pretty clear.

[whizkid]

Seemed clear to me that not finding another #1 arm was in regard to replacing Ben next year.

[kramnoj]

It means that we aren't going to find a #1 calibre arm for $5M a year so we are going to have to settle for someone like Bush or Suppan instead. Seemed pretty clear.

He didn't say a #1 caliber arm. He said "another". Why would he refer to another #1 caliber arm for $5 million when talking about Sheets, who clearly isn't available for $5 mil a year?

[dvoiss]

With Yo set to come back soon is tonight Bush's last chance to save his starting job? He certainly hasn't done anything so far to even mildly indicate he deserves to stay there. My guess is if he pitches poorly tonight he'd bound for the pen and McClung is bound for Nashville. But what if he pitches well tonight? Do you bump Manny or CV? I dunno. If it were my call I would say Bush is done as a starter no matter what happens tonight. Unfortunately last I heard, I wasn't going to get a vote.

[lcbj68c]

Even if he throws a perfect game tonight, Bush goes to the Pen and McClung to AAA.

[sheethead]

I don't get a vote either. I would like to see Bush in the pen for long relief, cause we all saw what Suppan is capable of, as are the other young-ens, in not pitching deep into the game. McClunk should not be trusted with keeping the Brewers in ballgames in which the starter has to exit early.

[Beast Light]

I really hope that this is his last chance. Not only do I feel that Many and Carlos are better options in the present, I also feel that their development will be hurt if they are sent to the pen or worse yet, packing for Nashville. Also, at this point, I really do not care about who has options and who doesn't. We lost the division by 2 games last year ...I want the best players we have on the field, period.