Rickie Weeks looks the same to me; like a bust.

[lcbj68c]

I agree with Brewer Fever to some extent, but that just really attempts to solve half the problem and not address his defensive liability. Who bats leadoff with Rickie Weeks somewhere else? Cameron maybe, but even he has more of a power stroke than Weeks does. Corey Hart seemed to do well in the leadoff role last year, maybe that is an option. But again, until a change is made on defense, some losses are going to be a direct result of the defense on the right side of the infield.

[Gobias Industries]

Weeks, while dissapointing to the casual fan, is far from a bust. A bust is out of the league during his mid to upper twenties (prime years). Over those 1200 at-bats, Weeks has shown that he can get on base when he's healthy. He can play 10 more years if he wants to because of that. When a guy can get on base and steal a base at the best rate in the league (He's the best base stealer in the league imo), he should be plently valuable at a weak offensive position.

 

The funny thing is we are not even having this conversation if the 3 balls that he destroyed in Cincy weren't outs. A month from now two of those are easy homeruns and the other was robbed by Phillips because he was shaded up the middle for a steal. Would have been an easy double/triple otherwise. If those hits had fell in his OPS is the highest on the team and someone is making a thread asking why the whole team can't hit besides Rickie.

 

I've seen every Weeks at-bat since he came up in 05, (outside of yesterday, which I'll go thru on Monday once I'm back in Milwaukee.) I can say with full confidence that he's never gonna be a high average guy. He might have already hit his career high in 2006. When he came up he tended to hit the ball a lot harder than he does now, which is disheartening to say the least.

 

I know the original poster says he swings at a lot of junk. I disagree. He only swings at junk when he's behind against good pitchers like Zambrano, Cueto, and Wagner. Every hitter in the league does that. He's easily got the best eye on the team and if he could center the ball like Braun and Fielder do he'd be a top 5 hitter in the league. I don't know if the wrist injury took away his ability to hit the ball hard consistently, or if he's just pulling off the ball.

 

As for his defense, he goes thru streaks of really good D and then a horrid stretch. Its very odd.

[Never Outhustled]

Phillips had about 400 ABs when Cleveland dumped him -- Weeks has about 3 times that. It's not correct to compare Phillips and Weeks as how patient teams have been with them.

Cleveland kept Phillips in AAA for 2 years, while the Brewers kept Weeks in AAA for 2 months.

[jjfanec]

Weeks is not a more efficient base stealer. Overall in the minors Rickie was only 63% effective while Crabbe was 71% effective. Those numbers you cited were AAA number only, for which Rickie only spent 225 at bats.

Actually i used their overall minor league numbers. You took one season where Weeks had a bad year on the basepaths. Just look at his numbers in the majors. He has stolen 62 bases and been caught 9 times. That is terrific. Crabbe's best minor league season had 34 steals and 11 caught stealing which is good but not near Weeks numbers in the majors. You can use just one down season if you want but the reality is outside of the AA season you chose to focus on for Weeks his numbers are better. Even in that down year the numbers were not too far off. Look at what Weeks has done in AAA compared to Crabbe and you will see they are not that close. In over 220 AB his OBP is over .430. That is crazy. Crabbe's highest outside of rookie ball is .377. That is a huge difference, especially when you add in better power.

 

 

(pared back long quote --1992)

[Brewer Fever]

Who knows, maybe if his bat were to get going his defense might improve right along with it. And yes it does suck that we really haven't the perfect candidate to bat leadoff. Hart and Weeks seem the closest to the mold, but it seems like Hart handles the spot better in his limited exposure. I'd flip them in the lineup. And if Weeks does what I think he's capable of when the reigns are taken off, I think he could eventually be moved up behind Prince who clearly should be batting clean-up with free-swinging Braun ahead of him.

 

This is the lineup that we should transition to...

 

Hart

Cameron

Braun

Fielder

Weeks

Hall

Hardy

Pitcher

Kendall

 

It will probably never happen or it will come too late with Mr. Pigeon-Hole filling out the lineup card. I mean he forced this leadoff thing on Rickie because he pictures him as a guy with all the physical tools of a leadoff guy. And now he's forcing Braun to protect Prince requiring him to be more selective without the protection that he'd get if they were flip-flopped. The problem in both these cases is that neither of those players have the menatlity to fill those roles. But all that be damned in the mind of Ned Yost. Square pegs must be pounded into round holes.

[lcbj68c]

Actually i used their overall minor league numbers. You took one season where Weeks had a bad year on the basepaths.

I used that one season because that is the only level that each spent a significant amount of time at. 220 at bats got accomplished in 55 or so games, so I'm not going to unfairly try and make a comparison on that, so I choose the AA numbers. I didnt cherry-pick to see what was Weeks worst minor league season. I also am not going to try and look at Rickie's major league career numbers and compare them to a season of Crabbe's. Bottom line is stolen base percentages were not better, Fielding was not better, plate discipline was not better and Rickie has severly underachieve whereas Crabbe has overachieved. Rickie certainly had more potential, but I would rather have had an overachieving Crabbe up at this point and a different 1st round pick from that draft year.

 

 

(pared back long nested quote --1992)

[1992casey]

Please keep "full lineup" posts in the designated lineup thread.

 

Thanks!

[Gobias Industries]

Brewer Fever wrote:

This is the lineup that we should transition to...

 

Hart

Cameron

Braun

Fielder

Weeks

Hall

Hardy

Pitcher

Kendall

I'd be down with that lineup. I would switch Weeks and Cameron though. I'd like to see what he could do with Braun and Fielder behind him.

Edit: sorry casey, feel free to move.

[Brewer Fever]

Gobias, you make a good point. Without getting into the whole lineup 1 thru 9, I could definitely see it that way as well. Rickie in the 2-hole would mean he'd be seeing alot of fastballs.

[Gobias Industries]

I used that one season because that is the only level that each spent a significant amount of time at. 220 at bats got accomplished in 55 or so games, so I'm not going to unfairly try and make a comparison on that, so I choose the AA numbers. I didnt cherry-pick to see what was Weeks worst minor league season. I also am not going to try and look at Rickie's major league career numbers and compare them to a season of Crabbe's. Bottom line is stolen base percentages were not better, Fielding was not better, plate discipline was not better and Rickie has severly underachieve whereas Crabbe has overachieved. Rickie certainly had more potential, but I would rather have had an overachieving Crabbe up at this point and a different 1st round pick from that draft year.

Weeks was rushed up. Crabbe wasn't. The minor league is learning tool as much as a competitive league. He was learning how to become a good base stealer. When he got to the organization he was fast. That's it. There is no way that Crabbe is a better base stealer than Weeks.

[rluzinski]

Weeks' offensive numbers are his numbers. Let's not automatically assume that they would be drastically different in a different lineup position because they probably wouldn't be.

 

I understand that Weeks hasn't met many people's expectations for him but to call him a bust isn't fair either. Not every prospect reaches his full potential and Weeks might be one of them but he still has value.

 

The thing that hurts Weeks' value the most, IMO, is his defense. He's a liability at 2B and I think he's going to have to be moved sooner rather than later.

[molitor fan]

Please keep "full lineup posts" in the designated lineup thread.

 

Thanks!

 

Actually, the commentary about Weeks being misplaced in the lineup is a very salient point in this thread, as it is in direct reference to a reason why Weeks' production may be compromised. Despite his obp skills, I also agree that seeing Weeks as a leadoff hitter still pains me. He also strikes me more as a middle of the lineup hitter. Having Hart at the top of the lineup worked well last year, revisiting it is certainly a possibility. Weeks' defense bugs me more than his offensive inconsistancies, as his footwork just does not seem to be improving. Range is largely about proper footwork. Weeks' occaional rediculous defensive range is solely due to his athletic abilities. On the very next play, Weeks may not get to a ball that 90% of defenders should get, due to stepping in the wrong direction or taking the wrong angle. At this stage, Weeks simply needs to be improving his reactions and making the correct read with his feet consistantly.

[JJHardy7]

Weeks has shown that he can get on base when he's healthy.

 

I guess I don't quite understand this logic. How is getting walks that more difficult with a banged up wrist? The reason he succeeded in August and September is because is approach changed. His wrist may have healed during that time also, but I find it hard to believe it was holding him back that bad last year. If that was the case, maybe he should've been on the DL.

[Gobias Industries]

Busting him inside because he couldn't turn on the ball was a very good reason he was struggling with OBP when he was injured. With a wrist injury your BA is gonna go down. I'll give you his approach was pretty screwed up in June and July last year. A healthy wrist wouldn't have made a huge difference.

 

No doubt the Brewers botched the situation last year. He should have never been on the team opening day. Starting on the DL and then rehabbing in the minors would have been much more beneficial to him and the team.

 

In actuality, they have made just about every wrong decision with Rickie's career. Rushed him to the majors, had him play thru a thumb injury his rookie year, and pushed him too hard last year.

[1992casey]

Actually, the commentary about Weeks being misplaced in the lineup is a very salient point in this thread, as it is in direct reference to a reason why Weeks' production may be compromised.

 

Yes, it is pertinent. The issue, however, is full lineup posts. Experience has shown that when full lineups are posted to a thread, it's very easy for attention to be diverted from the issue at hand to something completely different. We could suddenly be talking about whether or not Hardy should be hitting seventh or whether Gwynn or Gross should be in the lineup at all.

 

That's why the full lineup thing was added to the Major League Forum Rules as part of last year's "Keep Brewerfan Beautiful" campaign.

[JJHardy7]

Busting him inside because he couldn't turn on the ball was a very good reason he was struggling with OBP when he was injured. With a wrist injury your BA is gonna go down. I'll give you his approach was pretty screwed up in June and July last year. A healthy wrist wouldn't have made a huge difference.

 

I guess I can see that to a certain degree, but I don't think the injury should really change his approach. I still think some of Rickie's issues with the bat and on the field are mental which makes it more frustrating. I do believe he has all the natural skills, but it really is time for him to put it together sooner rather than later.

[dlk9s]

"He's still making bad outs"

 

What are good outs, and how should he make them?

I'm not saying that Weeks is or is not a bust. But come on, you know there is such a thing as a "good" out.

A "good" out is one that, while an out, still provides value to the team. Some examples: a sac fly, a ground out that moves a runner from second to third, a sac bunt (although this one is debatable, I suppose), or an out which works the pitcher for 7, 8, 9 pitches.

I don't have statistics to back this up, but as many have observed, it SEEMS like Weeks pops up, strikes out, and dribbles out to the the SS a lot.

 

The best hitters are still going to make outs 7 out of 10 times, so nobody expects Weeks to get base hits every time up. It is helpful, however, if some of those 7 outs result in some sort of production for the team.

 

[apirk]

Weeks is still young give him time. It really sucks when people place such high expectations on young players that are almost impossible to reach right away. Just because you feel he should be better doesn't make him a bust. he is one of three first round picks by the Brewers in the 00s to be on the team.

Also, for all thos who complain about how he should be better since he was drafted #2, besides Markakis who would yo have liked them to draft?

1.	Devil Rays	Delmon Young	RF	Adolfo Camarillo HS
2.	Brewers	Rickie Weeks	2B	Southern U A&M
3.	Tigers	Kyle Sleeth	RHP	Wake Forest U
4.	Padres	Timothy Stauffer	RHP	U Richmond
5.	Royals	Christopher Lubanski	CF	Kennedy-Kenrick Catholic
6.	Cubs	Ryan Harvey	CF	Dunedin HS
7.	Orioles	Nicholas Markakis	OF	Young-Harris College
8.	Pirates	Paul Maholm	LHP	Mississippi State U
9.	Rangers	John Danks	LHP	Round Rock HS
10.	Rockies	Ian Stewart	3B	La Quinta HS

[lukevan]

It makes sense because opposing pitchers knew about rickie's wrist and were less apt to "pitch around" him, hence, fewer walks available to take.

 

I agree that Weeks being in the leadoff slot forces him to let some appetizing first pitches go by. I don't think a leadoff hitter should be THAT conscious of trying to see pitches. Sure you want to take the walks the pitcher gives you, but sometimes that first pitch is the best you'll see all game. I love seeing him swing away early in the count (at strikes of course) because he still has a good eye and can work his way on base late in the count.

[kramnoj]

The best hitters are still going to make outs 7 out of 10 times, so nobody expects Weeks to get base hits every time up. It is helpful, however, if some of those 7 outs result in some sort of production for the team.

Last year, Ryan Braun had 5 sac flies. Last year, Weeks had 3 sac hits and 2 sac flies. Braun last year had 13 GDP, and weeks had 3. Last year, Braun had an OBP of .370 and Weeks had an OBP of .374. Braun last year was more likely to make an out than Weeks was.

 

It's not really true that the best hitters make outs 7 out of 10 times. That's for people who don't understand OBP. The best hitters will have an OBP of .400 or higher and will make outs 6 out of 10 times, or less.

[RickieWeeksJr]

Seriosuly, in no sense is Weeks a bust. Krynzel, ok, Weeks no. Not aure how an average start at age 24 is a bust, but hey he doesn't play like an All Star , he must suck.

He's turns 26 in September. And if his career ended for some reason right now, he would almost certainly be considered a bust. Just because you're better than Dave Krynzel, doesn't mean you're legit.

To the poster who mentioned Mike Schmidt; I don't even know where to begin with that asinine comparison. First of all, Weeks career BA is 20 points lower. Second, the eras are COMPLETELY different. Schmidt played in a time with a lot less offense. He was an 11-time All-Star and 8-time Gold Glover. He was a lock for 30 bombs and hit 548 for his career ... and this was in an era that wasn't nearly as offense-friendly.

[JJHardy7]

Weeks is still young give him time. It really sucks when people place such high expectations on young players that are almost impossible to reach right away.

 

I don't think a lot of people here are putting expectations on him that are impossible to reach. Improving defense, limiting strikeouts, and playing consistent are part of developing. Rickie hasn't done any of these over time. Let's remember that this isn't Rickie's rookie year. I think some people treat it that way because of injuries, but this is his fifth season in the bigs. Nobody here is saying Rickie is a bust because he hasn't hit 40+ home runs. I'd be completely fine with 20 - 25 home runs, improved defense, and consistent at bats. I don't think that's asking much from a player that has shown he can do all of those things at times.

[RickieWeeksJr]

Last year, Ryan Braun had 5 sac flies. Last year, Weeks had 3 sac hits and 2 sac flies. Braun last year had 13 GDP, and weeks had 3. Last year, Braun had an OBP of .370 and Weeks had an OBP of .374. Braun last year was more likely to make an out than Weeks was.

Braun also hit .324 to Weeks' .235. He hit 34 bombs and knocked in 97 runs. And this was in 40 more at-bats. In his rookie year. C'mon man, some of your arguments are ridiculous.

 

 

(pared back long nested quote; also, please avoid ad hominem condescension-1992)

[endaround]

He's turns 26 in September. And if his career ended for some reason right now, he would almost certainly be considered a bust.

Right, he's 25 now meaning he was 24 last year when he provided above average production at 2B. Yes he's not Utley but then no one else is either.

 

[kramnoj]

I think you should actually look at Schmidt's career. His batting averages through age 26 were .196, .282, .249 and .262. It also doesn't make sense to compare his whole career to Rickie. The whole point is that it's too early to call him a bust, because he's so early in his career.